Repricing Striking ST (but not HP or Lifting ST) in modern campaigns

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Remember that the "core" of TL2 includes the Persians, most of the war stories of the bible, and Greek city states. The Romans have a distinct technological edge over those folks.



There is a group of folks (including myself) who like to count Alexander the great and the Romans as TL3 and inhabitants of northern Europe in the 600's as TL2. The Mediterranean cultures had some pretty advanced stuff, and northern Europe took a while to catch up, even under roman rule.

I'm not sure I would consider Greek hoplites or ancient Israelite warriors "core" TL2. The Greeks continued to lack iron mail long after the great empires of the near east had adopted it. I'm less sure about ancient Israel, but the references to armor in the Tanakh tend to specify bronze if they mention the material at all. A big deal gets made out of Israel's enemies having iron chariots in a couple places but chariotry being militarily important implies a lack of riding horses (another mark of TL2). And my sense is that your relative ranking of Macedonian and the Persian army is backwards: my understanding is that Alexander's success rested not on superior technology, but the fact that Alexander charged, Darius retreated, and then Darius got assassinated for perceived cowardice.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes suggests that in a TL8 game you reprice HP, Lifting ST, and Striking ST to be 1 point, 2 points, and 3 points, respectively.

I'm actually wondering if rather than repricing other advantages as they compare to TL that we simply reprice wealth/income as having a static value no matter what TL the setting is (kind of like equipment has a static value) and when people buy up their wealth (and TL skills) to "campaign average" we just reflect that as being higher-value characters.

IE modern humans might be seen as a bunch of 500cp folk competing with each other while medieval humans might be seen as a bunch of 100cp folk competing with each other.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by ericthered

There is a group of folks (including myself) who like to count Alexander the great and the Romans as TL3 and inhabitants of northern Europe in the 600's as TL2. The Mediterranean cultures had some pretty advanced stuff, and northern Europe took a while to catch up, even under roman rule.

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I'm not sure I would consider Greek hoplites or ancient Israelite warriors "core" TL2. The Greeks continued to lack iron mail long after the great empires of the near east had adopted it. I'm less sure about ancient Israel, but the references to armor in the Tanakh tend to specify bronze if they mention the material at all. A big deal gets made out of Israel's enemies having iron chariots in a couple places but chariotry being militarily important implies a lack of riding horses (another mark of TL2). And my sense is that your relative ranking of Macedonian and the Persian army is backwards: my understanding is that Alexander's success rested not on superior technology, but the fact that Alexander charged, Darius retreated, and then Darius got assassinated for perceived cowardice.

This is ignoring 4e TL concepts:

*Borderline technology
TLOld-TLNew. Example: TL5-6. For societies in transition from one tech level to another.

*Split Technology

TLPrimary (fields, TLSecondary). Example: TL8 (Communications TL7, Medical TL9). "Realistic societies rarely have the same TL in every field of endeavor; they tend to be advanced in some fields, backward in others."

*Borrowed (familiar) Technologie

TLKnown/Familiar. Example: TL1/2 (Bronze Age society familiar with Iron Age technology). For societies familiar with other level of technologies but not able (or willing) to replicate them.

*Divergent Technology

TL(Historical+Divergent). Example: TL(5+1) is a TL6, with historical Earth-like TL5, but somewhat different TL6 (same effects, different form). For alternate worlds which "look" different. Characters not used to truely divergent technology suffer a -2 penalty.


Some real world examples we are given:

*Polynesian Navigators: TL0 (Seafaring TL2)
*The Walls of Jericho: TL0 (Construction and fortification TL1)
*Mayans: TL(0+1) (Mathematics TL3)
*African Metallurgy: TL1 (Metallurgy TL2)
*Medieval Medicine: TL3 (Medicine TL1-2)

The historical Greece and Roman civilizations had Split Technology. Sure the Greek may have lacked Iron but they did have the TL2 of scrolls and some other elements.

Rome had sSteel (TL3) though of uneven quality and had books (TL3) as well as scrolls (TL2) near the end of the Empire. There are many other TL3 they both did and did not have.

The modern US has a variety of TLs: TL6 through 8 cars on TL6 interstates with a TL6-7 power grid managed by TL8 computers. If we could plot everything well likely would be TL708 in many areas with a. few TL9 things like Robot cars coming down the pipe.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Looking up front-line trench width, I keep on seeing "six feet" for the width. What I've seen of the knives and clubs they're associated with the night raids of trenches, more often with the attackers (who could specialize) than the defenders. Bayonet fencing takes a surprising amount of room. I do think the big over the top assaults mostly used the bayonet or shots though.

[If we're talking night raids, both sides would've been using the close stuff, but we're also talking "melee weapons are quiet" at this point.

Yes, by the end of TL6 you have the capability to fight effectively at close quarters with guns. Its not true of the bulk of TL6, but it is true by WWII, at the end of it.

TL6 is 1880+. That means fully-develop single and double-action cartridge revolvers for the whole period, semi-automatic pistols for over half of it, lever and pump-action shotguns (popular with Americans for WWI trench warfare) for most of it, and lever-action centre-fire rifles and carbines for all of it. These are all highly effective short-range firearms. Add in smokeless cartridges for almost all of the period, in magazine-fed bolt-actions (capable of quite good rates of fire) for almost the whole period, semi-automatic rifles for over half of it (even if the military world didn't adopt them until quite late), even if we discount SMGs for only being available for the last third of the period, TL6 is not a period where melee weapons were a valid alternative to guns. They were an emergency backup, except in some specialist roles (and trench warfare is actually a specialist use).

TL5 is the time when you might well have chosen a big knife or a sabre as a second weapon, rather than carrying another revolver, not TL6.

One slightly annoying thing about the TL system is that several iconic settings are right on TL boundaries, most notably the Wild West, World War 2, and Ancient Rome, and these settings have advanced capabilities compared to the rest of the TL.

You have to set the boundaries somewhere, and their really should be one during or right after WWII, and if it's right after, you end up saying "early TL7, adopted during the last of TL6" about an awful lot of inventions. Even as it is, there are things like radar and sonar that pre-date WWII and make a mess of the boundary, but moving it back to 1935 or so wouldn't really help.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Rupert

TL6 is 1880+.

As GURPS Low tech points out "Define a society’s TL by the tools and techniques in common use there – not by the calendar date. Different technologies don’t always advance in step. "

Originally Posted by Rupert

You have to set the boundaries somewhere, and their really should be one during or right after WWII, and if it's right after, you end up saying "early TL7, adopted during the last of TL6" about an awful lot of inventions. Even as it is, there are things like radar and sonar that pre-date WWII and make a mess of the boundary, but moving it back to 1935 or so wouldn't really help.

TLs are not "boundaries" but rough guides. The Basis Set reminds us "Realistic societies rarely have the same TL in every field of endeavor; they tend to be advanced in some fields, backward in others." (B511)

GURPS High Tech shows the TL5 "S&W Number 3 Russian, .44 Russian (USA, 1871-1912)" and given the conservative nature of warfare it likely saw use in WWI though by that time much of the TL5 stuff was effectively obsolete.

TL7 is all over the place in terms of year. For example, Haber–Bosch process which could fall into the "Chemical fertilizer" category was invented ca 1900.

If you consider tabulators "computers" that push that TL7 advancement back to at least 1890.

Julius Edgar Lilienfeld patented a field-effect transistor in 1926 and 1928; Oskar Heil patented something similar in 1934. Improvements to this design led to the better known point-contact transistor developed in 1947-8 and in fact some of the 1947-8 patents were rejected due to their similarities.

GURPS TL is a reasonable benchmark but it should never be a hard and fast guide.

[ericthered]

You have to set the boundaries somewhere, and their really should be one during or right after WWII, and if it's right after, you end up saying "early TL7, adopted during the last of TL6" about an awful lot of inventions. Even as it is, there are things like radar and sonar that pre-date WWII and make a mess of the boundary, but moving it back to 1935 or so wouldn't really help.

Oh, I don't have a better solution. I'm just noting that many of the iconic settings for Tech Levels are on tech level boundaries, and when looking at Tech levels you should remember these iconic settings are at the end of the tech level, not in the center.

Originally Posted by Rupert

TL6 is 1880+. That means fully-develop single and double-action cartridge revolvers for the whole period, semi-automatic pistols for over half of it, lever and pump-action shotguns (popular with Americans for WWI trench warfare) for most of it, and lever-action centre-fire rifles and carbines for all of it. These are all highly effective short-range firearms. Add in smokeless cartridges for almost all of the period, in magazine-fed bolt-actions (capable of quite good rates of fire) for almost the whole period, semi-automatic rifles for over half of it (even if the military world didn't adopt them until quite late), even if we discount SMGs for only being available for the last third of the period, TL6 is not a period where melee weapons were a valid alternative to guns. They were an emergency backup, except in some specialist roles (and trench warfare is actually a specialist use).

TL5 is the time when you might well have chosen a big knife or a sabre as a second weapon, rather than carrying another revolver, not TL6.

These weapons show up at the times you list, but that doesn't make them cheap, reliable, practical, or popular. We have the benefit of knowing what weapons technology is the future, but the people at that time didn't. People don't immediately adopt semi-auto pistols the year the first one shows up on the market. Reading up on why particular weapons technologies were or weren't adopted by various militaries is fascinating, as is looking at production runs for cutting edge weapons and what uses they eventually found. Early experimental designs for weapons have weird problems, often are restricted to less than ideal calibers, and can be quite expensive.

Giving every fighter a semi-automatic weapon is a TL7 thing: In my mind, its the signature TL7 combat paradigm.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Oh, I don't have a better solution. I'm just noting that many of the iconic settings for Tech Levels are on tech level boundaries, and when looking at Tech levels you should remember these iconic settings are at the end of the tech level, not in the center.

I'm not so sure of this. Sure WWII was effectively at the end of TL8 but WWI was effectively smack in the middle of TL6 and the Victorian age (and the Steampunk genre) are in a TL5-6 world leaning more to the TL6 side of things.

Rome covers much of TL2 and had a handful of TL3 innovations and the Easter Empire would survive though out TL3 finally falling as TL4 started to appear.

Originally Posted by ericthered

These weapons show up at the times you list, but that doesn't make them cheap, reliable, practical, or popular. We have the benefit of knowing what weapons technology is the future, but the people at that time didn't. People don't immediately adopt semi-auto pistols the year the first one shows up on the market. Reading up on why particular weapons technologies were or weren't adopted by various militaries is fascinating, as is looking at production runs for cutting edge weapons and what uses they eventually found. Early experimental designs for weapons have weird problems, often are restricted to less than ideal calibers, and can be quite expensive.

Giving every fighter a semi-automatic weapon is a TL7 thing: In my mind, its the signature TL7 combat paradigm.

This is key with how to handle TLs IMHO. Classic did leave the impression that when year x hit everything changed over to the new TL but 4e fixed that.

It should note that for various reasons militaries will use old rather then cutting edge equipment. The Thompson submachine gun saw military service as late as the 1970s, for instance.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Varyon

TL boundaries are often associated with times of social upheaval of one sort or another, so this is kind of inevitable.

Yeah, interesting periods of history tend to be interesting in more than one way.

The American Civil War has some aspects of that, taking place near the very end of TL 5, and around the same time as Wild West (although I think most of those stories are post-war, often with many characters having served on one side or the other).

I'm from out west, and my ancestors are some of the first Europeans who settled down there, so I've paid a good deal attention to the history of the west. Stories set there are overwhelmingly post-civil war. Those that aren't don't feel "wild west", they have more of a "mountain man" or "explorer" feel to them.

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I'm not sure I would consider Greek hoplites or ancient Israelite warriors "core" TL2. The Greeks continued to lack iron mail long after the great empires of the near east had adopted it. I'm less sure about ancient Israel, but the references to armor in the Tanakh tend to specify bronze if they mention the material at all. A big deal gets made out of Israel's enemies having iron chariots in a couple places but chariotry being militarily important implies a lack of riding horses (another mark of TL2).

So your argument is that they weren't, and we know because their neighbors were?

And my sense is that your relative ranking of Macedonian and the Persian army is backwards: my understanding is that Alexander's success rested not on superior technology, but the fact that Alexander charged, Darius retreated, and then Darius got assassinated for perceived cowardice.

It would be interesting to know what Alexander's record against someone else would be. He hardly fought against Darius in every battle though. I will admit when I said "Persians", I was referring to the ones who conquered the empire and failed to conquer the Greeks, not the enemies of Alexander.


The technology of the Greeks immediately after Alexander is impressive though. Its the birth of history and the beginning of higher mathematics.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by ericthered

The technology of the Greeks immediately after Alexander is impressive though. Its the birth of history and the beginning of higher mathematics.

Classical (i.e. pre-Alexandrian) Greek civil engineering was pretty impressive too.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I'm from out west, and my ancestors are some of the first Europeans who settled down there, so I've paid a good deal attention to the history of the west. Stories set there are overwhelmingly post-civil war. Those that aren't don't feel "wild west", they have more of a "mountain man" or "explorer" feel to them.

Seconding this. Hell, most of "the west" wasn't even part of the United States until 1848. Plus, "revolver" meant a muzzle loader before 1854, and muzzle-loading revolvers are hardly what people think of when they think of the western genre. It's not quite strictly that westerns must be post-Civil War—The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly was set during the Civil War—but you certainly can't go that much further back.

So your argument is that they weren't, and we know because their neighbors were?

The point is that the dramatic differences in equipment between Greek hoplites and Roman legionaries could be misleading with respect to the Romans vs. contemporaries of those hoplites.

It would be interesting to know what Alexander's record against someone else would be. He hardly fought against Darius in every battle though. I will admit when I said "Persians", I was referring to the ones who conquered the empire and failed to conquer the Greeks, not the enemies of Alexander.

The war against Darius was really what made Alexander's reputation, do a degree that would surprise many people only casually familiar with his biography. And after Darius' defeat he would have started incorporating Persian units into his army.

The technology of the Greeks immediately after Alexander is impressive though. Its the birth of history and the beginning of higher mathematics.

Herodotus was pre-Alexander, and it's quite possible there were Persian precedents for what he did that simply weren't preserved. Our surviving historical sources for Achaemenid Empire are quite sparse, but that doesn't mean they weren't writing things. As for mathematics, I'm really not sure what definition of "higher mathematics" would place its origin after Alexander.