what should it cost to benefit from Striking ST for Parrying Heavy Weapons?

[Plane]

B376's "cannot parry a weapon heavier than your Basic Lift" limits what you can parry based on your Lifting ST. Having a high Striking ST doesn't normally seem to help here.

I was wondering something like "determine Basic Lift based on Striking ST only for parries" and wondering if that should be possible via a Technique Adaptation perk, or if it should cost more, like buying Lifting ST w/ some kind of "-80% only for parrying heavy weapons" limitation.

There are some characters like Splinter in TMNT for example who clearly have a high Striking ST (check out the knockback he inflicts on Shreddar w/ his kick in the toon) but who don't seem to exhibit "I can carry heavy stuff around" analagous to a high overall ST or lifting ST.

Yet you do see him capable of fending off heavy attacks, like the weapon-based Slam shreddar uses in the film, which mighty probably use full ST instead of 1/10 ST as strikes normally do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beojZvlecl0

Shreddar (he only weighted 158 lbs w/o his armor but actual weight doesn't seem to matter for PHW slams) could lift overhead (per the 80s RPG) 19*40=760 pounds, which if we divide by 8 (per B15) requires a Basic Lift of 95, meaning he has a Lifting ST of at least 21 (it's off the B17 chart)

That's not unbelievable when you see how he throws the turtles around in the 3rd NES game (they weigh 150 pounds per 80s RPG)

To parry a slam from someone w/ ST 21 requires basic lift of 21+, meaning a Lifting ST 11 or more. Splinter doesn't really seem that strong. I don't think I've seen him lift anything particularly heavy.

He was only capable of lifting 12*30=360lbs in the 80s RPG, which /8 requires a Basic Lift of 45: a ST of 15 technically which I guess means he should be able to lift huge things, so if we don't see it maybe that's due to him having a "Bad Back" (explaining the use of the cane) which means he avoid making ST rolls where possible.

Lifting stuff is traditionally a ST roll in basic set but the "pickup" technique in Technical Grappling makes it a HT roll w/ modifiers influenced by Basic Lift vs Subject Weight instead.

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MA107 doesn't actually say that when you sub slam damage it counts as a slam for weight purposes though, so I could be wrong. If that's the case it only takes a Basic Lift of 3+ to 1-hand parry the (non-slam) attacks from someone w/ ST 21 which would only require a Lifting ST of 4 or more.

Of course, if it's not a slam then it follows standard weapon rules, which don't take into account the ST of the attacker at all, just weapon weight. If you take a look at the double-tipped spear he uses it seems to be about a yard long https://www.previewsworld.com/SiteIm...mage/STL120248

The closest thing I can find in Basic Set would probably be a Javelin (B273) because this doesn't seem long enough to get Reach 2 even using a 2H grip. Javelins only have a weight of 2, meaning it would be slightly easier to parry them (ST3 is adequate: basic lift 1.8) than an unarmed attack of a ST 19 or higher wielding it.

Instead of a javelin, an alternative explanation could be that Shreddar's 1990 weapon was a 'short spear' (LT69) but they have the same weight and ST requirements and cost and thrusting damage...

I actually can't see the difference other than cutting is mentioned as a 'Tip Slash' for short spear but not javelin (javs instead have a "can be thrown" note). I can't quite explain why you wouldn't be able to use a Tip Slash w/ a javelin though since that's a standard option w/ all impaling weapons. If I were to make a distinction I think it'd be to make a short spear slightly heavier and more durable than a javelin since that'd be intended for repeated melee use.

[whswhs]

I wouldn't allow this as stated. Striking ST adds to the ability to contract your muscles quickly and forcefully against a light load; it shouldn't affect maximum load. But you could probably base something like what you're aiming for on the perk Huge Weapons (ST).

[Plane]

Originally Posted by whswhs

you could probably base something like what you're aiming for on the perk Huge Weapons (ST).

*checks PU2p6*

So basically instead of "avoiding penalties" (you would still suffer them) you get Lifting ST +1 w/ that weapon solely for parrying?

Given the base cost of 3/level for lifting ST makes me wonder if we could just get >66% limitations to similarly make it perk-level.

I know "One Skill" for Extra Attack is -20% as a start, which I could imagine floating to Striking ST so why not Lifting ST?

[the_matrix_walker]

Basing things on games, cartoons and other gaming systems is a tough route. You're unlikely to see much in the way of consistency.

If the game is cinematic enough, and with ninja turtles it probably is, I would just use a rules exemption Perk to handwave the fussiness of Maximum parry weight.

[lvalero]

I would probably model the power of parrying a MUCH heavier weapon than you could, using an imbuement. In a martial arts campaign it would be a Chi-powered imbuement.

It sounds like a level 1 imbuement could do the trick.

Great parry. Imbuement 1

Enhances the effective strenght to block/parry "heavy" attacks as if your ST has a +4 during the block or parry.

Modifiers. -1 for an additional +4 ST, -2 for each SIZE difference between you and the attack if you are smaller.

[Varyon]

Isn't Striking ST what is canonically used to determine if you meet the MinST requirements for a given weapon? With that in mind, I'd be fine with characters using BL based on their Striking ST to determine what the maximum weight they can Parry is. At the same time, however, a character with higher Lifting ST would also have to base this off their Striking ST. If you need a non-gamist explanation, wave your hands a bit and mumble something about how knocking an attack off target (that is, Parrying) is more about burst strength (Striking ST) than sustained strength (Lifting ST).

So, I'd suggest this should be the way things work normally. If anything, it might be a Perk to be able to using Lifting ST instead of Striking ST here.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Isn't Striking ST what is canonically used to determine if you meet the MinST requirements for a given weapon?

2011 quote

Originally Posted by PK

Okay, I've had a chance to go over this with Kromm in detail. Here's the ruling. I'll even cast Summon Molokh for it:

When weapons have a minimum ST requirement, can I add Arm ST, Lifting ST, and/or Striking ST to my ST for this purpose?

Arm ST always helps if it applies to all arms necessary to use the weapon. It's rather useful! If you have a two-handed weapon, however, and only one arm has the Arm ST, it doesn't help at all; always use the "weakest link."

Lifting ST helps with non-muscle-powered weapons, like firearms. The ST requirement for these weapons is primarily due to their mass, and Lifting ST helps with that. Their standard operation requires you to hold them steady, not to swing or a stab with them dynamically. (With some weapons, like heavy-recoil slugthrowers, Striking ST could be argued to help, but this kickback is still less of an issue than the weapon's mass -- thus, always use Lifting ST.)

Striking ST helps with muscle-powered weapons, from swords to thrown daggers to bows. The ST requirement for these weapons is primarily due to the need to use them dynamically -- you have to be able to swing, thrust, or pull with great force, which is what Striking ST is all about. (To some degree, Lifting ST could be argued to help, as it allows you to more easily support the weapon, but that's less of an issue than the need to attack with the weapon -- thus, always use Striking ST.)

So note that you can combine ST, Arm ST, and one of Lifting ST or Striking ST for the purpose of meeting a weapon's minimum ST requirement -- but you'll never combine Lifting ST and Striking ST.

By "muscle-powered" I figure they mean melee/throwing.

I'm sorta wondering about crossbows though, because even if striking ST helped you w/ loading the crossbow quickly, you don't actually use your ST when pulling the trigger.

I would imagine archery also could involve speed-shooting w/ striking ST used to "speed-draw" whereas a "slow draw that takes two seconds" could prob fall under lifting ST.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Plane

By "muscle-powered" I figure they mean melee/throwing.

I'm sorta wondering about crossbows though, because even if striking ST helped you w/ loading the crossbow quickly, you don't actually use your ST when pulling the trigger.

I would imagine archery also could involve speed-shooting w/ striking ST used to "speed-draw" whereas a "slow draw that takes two seconds" could prob fall under lifting ST.

Muscle-powered in this case would be melee, throwing, and assisted-throwing (like slings and atlatls) weapons.

Bows and crossbows should use Lifting ST. This is laid out in "The Deadly Spring" (Pyramid #3/33). I could see justification for using Striking ST if using Quick-Shooting Bows (MA119), but given that's typically* only an option in cinematic campaigns, for simplicity it may be better to just always use Lifting ST (it would seem odd to be able to only be able use a given bow with quick-shooting).

*Bows that are markedly weaker than you, like the ones Lars Andersen uses for his quick-shooting stunts, can be quick-shot in a realistic campaign, arguably at no penalty. I'd say any bow with an ST rating up to 70% of your own ST can be used this way (70% ST is ~1/2 BL; if using "The Deadly Spring," you can quick-shoot bows that are up to 1.25xBL).

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Isn't Striking ST what is canonically used to determine if you meet the MinST requirements for a given weapon? With that in mind, I'd be fine with characters using BL based on their Striking ST to determine what the maximum weight they can Parry is. At the same time, however, a character with higher Lifting ST would also have to base this off their Striking ST. If you need a non-gamist explanation, wave your hands a bit and mumble something about how knocking an attack off target (that is, Parrying) is more about burst strength (Striking ST) than sustained strength (Lifting ST).

So, I'd suggest this should be the way things work normally. If anything, it might be a Perk to be able to using Lifting ST instead of Striking ST here.

This seems to me like the tidiest and most consistent approach.