Aid Spell, Damage, and Fatigue

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by phiwum

As Henry says, spells like Create Gate need 50 ST. Figure a pretty darned good wizard has 20 ST available. If each apprentice can boost him only by 5 ST, then he needs a minimum of six apprentices -- more, since some are bound to fail to cast twice in a row.

Can you point out that limitation? I see that the Rule of Five speaks of a limit due to magic items, but I don't know where the rules would suggest a limitation to the Aid spell. Thanks.

Index: Attribute enhancer items, 161.
ITL 162: "Other effects – like potions and Aid spells – are cumulative with magic items, but only to the limit of 5. You could have a DX +3 ring, and have a +3 Aid spell cast on you – and both would help, but increasing your DX only to +5."

Note that the ring is a pre-existing condition that limits the effect of the Aid spell.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by phiwum

... In the original context of the Death Spell, it's the only way a non-Conan wizard could kill a stronger character (in terms of ST) --- if we take the ST loss described in the text as wounds. And I think it makes sense that a powerful wizard with oodles of mana in his staff should be tougher with a Death Spell than a fledgling wizard with the same ST but no mana. The Death Spell should be useful, and not just to oddly bulky wizards.

That said, our interpretation of Aid probably shouldn't be justified in my desire that the Death Spell be useful.

I'd say the Death Spell is useful, even powerful, but it's one of many TFT spells that sound useful at first, then seem like "how can THAT be used practically?", and then, if someone thinks enough about it, there are some actually quite useful applications of the spell, but only in certain conditions... and that's a GOOD thing, because the game would be extremely deadly if the Death Spell were easy to use and good for many situations.

The original context of the Death Spell was Wizard the microgame, which still applies to wizardly duels and some other fights. Wizard combat is about managing remaining ST, and often a close wizard duel will come down to two wizards with just a few points left. In that context, a capable wizard (with IQ 16 and DX at least 12...) who is sure they have more remaining ST than their opponent, may welcome a spell that will kill a foe outright. (If you know a foe has lost 3 DX due to wounds, the spell only costs 1-3 points to kill someone, and if you have ST 4+, you know you won't be the one dying.)

It'd also be good against a really tough enemy warrior who has armor but is heavily wounded. Your fighters might likely get slaughtered trying to finish him off, but you can kill him with one spell that can't be countered by anti-missile spells, nor by Stone/Iron/Diamond Flesh magic.

And in a campaign, the Death Spell can become rather more powerful with the use of Aid ST & DX, powerstones, and now in Legacy, staff mana, you can boost your ST & DX and/or recharge your fatigue before casting the spell, making the range and safety of the spell rather greater than it would be if you don't bring in those boosts.

Someone already mentioned the assassination use, as well.

Again, because the effect is outright death, it's good that it's a risky and not easy spell to make conveniently useful. It'd be pretty grim if it were as easy to use as Sleep, for example.

[Shostak]

Thanks, everyone, for your comments thus far.

There is a faction, perhaps a majority, who hold that ST boosted by aid allows one to cast spells with the Aided ST first, such that someone using only that ST will have their full natural ST left upon the expiration of Aid. But, they contend that it does not work like this for wounds; one with Aid-buffed ST could sustain more damage than they normally would be able to so long as the spell lasts, but those wounds would kill them upon Aid's expiration.

What about fatigue? Let's say that someone whose ST is Aided by 5 is berserk, and, while the spell is on, they come out of berserking and suffer the requisite 2 fatigue, bringing them down to 1 ST. Aid then expires. Do they die, or is the fatigue, like ST used for spell casting, forgiven?

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Index: Attribute enhancer items, 161.
ITL 162: "Other effects – like potions and Aid spells – are cumulative with magic items, but only to the limit of 5. You could have a DX +3 ring, and have a +3 Aid spell cast on you – and both would help, but increasing your DX only to +5."

Note that the ring is a pre-existing condition that limits the effect of the Aid spell.

Thank you much.

Your note about the ring is an inference that isn't altogether clear from the text. Could be so. I do think that Aid should be able to add a reasonable ST so that wizards can reasonably cast the difficult spell without an unwieldy entourage, but I don't think it's obvious from the text that this is the intended rule.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Skarg

I'd say the Death Spell is useful, even powerful, but it's one of many TFT spells that sound useful at first, then seem like "how can THAT be used practically?", and then, if someone thinks enough about it, there are some actually quite useful applications of the spell, but only in certain conditions... and that's a GOOD thing, because the game would be extremely deadly if the Death Spell were easy to use and good for many situations.

The original context of the Death Spell was Wizard the microgame, which still applies to wizardly duels and some other fights. Wizard combat is about managing remaining ST, and often a close wizard duel will come down to two wizards with just a few points left. In that context, a capable wizard (with IQ 16 and DX at least 12...) who is sure they have more remaining ST than their opponent, may welcome a spell that will kill a foe outright. (If you know a foe has lost 3 DX due to wounds, the spell only costs 1-3 points to kill someone, and if you have ST 4+, you know you won't be the one dying.)

It'd also be good against a really tough enemy warrior who has armor but is heavily wounded. Your fighters might likely get slaughtered trying to finish him off, but you can kill him with one spell that can't be countered by anti-missile spells, nor by Stone/Iron/Diamond Flesh magic.

And in a campaign, the Death Spell can become rather more powerful with the use of Aid ST & DX, powerstones, and now in Legacy, staff mana, you can boost your ST & DX and/or recharge your fatigue before casting the spell, making the range and safety of the spell rather greater than it would be if you don't bring in those boosts.

Someone already mentioned the assassination use, as well.

Again, because the effect is outright death, it's good that it's a risky and not easy spell to make conveniently useful. It'd be pretty grim if it were as easy to use as Sleep, for example.

I agree that Death Spell can't be too easy.

The question is whether using Aid prior to Death Spell to kill a stronger opponent is too easy.

At least that's one question. The real question is whether wounds and fatigue are treated differently when an Aid ST spell wears off. I do think I've been focusing on the Death Spell use too much, since this is a minor side effect of this more fundamental question.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Shostak

Thanks, everyone, for your comments thus far.

There is a faction, perhaps a majority, who hold that ST boosted by aid allows one to cast spells with the Aided ST first, such that someone using only that ST will have their full natural ST left upon the expiration of Aid. But, they contend that it does not work like this for wounds; one with Aid-buffed ST could sustain more damage than they normally would be able to so long as the spell lasts, but those wounds would kill them upon Aid's expiration.

What about fatigue? Let's say that someone whose ST is Aided by 5 is berserk, and, while the spell is on, they come out of berserking and suffer the requisite 2 fatigue, bringing them down to 1 ST. Aid then expires. Do they die, or is the fatigue, like ST used for spell casting, forgiven?

Good question, prompting another.

Suppose a character has five points of Aid cast on him and he suffers four fatigue and three wounds and we use my suggestion that the Aid effectively cancels both wounds and fatigue. How many wounds and fatigue does he have in the end?

According to my suggestion, five points are wiped out. He could lose four fatigue and one wound, leaving two wound damage, or he could lose three wounds and two fatigue, leaving two fatigue damage (or something in-between).

I'd prefer the harsher outcome, so he still has two wounds, but this is just me being mean-spirited and not a principled choice. I guess the most reasonable answer is that first-come, first-cancelled, so he loses fatigue if he suffered that first and wounds if not. This is, however, a complicated solution but Aid doesn't really come up in my games and this would be a rare situation.

I will admit the answer for those who say wounds aren't wiped out at the end of an Aid spell have an easier time with this question.

As for your question, I'd say that the folks on the other side really should say the fatigue loss is wiped out when the spell ends, for consistency's sake, and I don't see any particular reason they wouldn't want to say that but I suppose I might be mistaken.

Given my suggestion above, since he suffered wounds before coming out of berserk, the wounds would get wiped out.

I totally get the desire to make Aid less useful than my suggestion does and I think that treating wounds and fatigue differently isn't outlandish. I just think treating them the same is simpler in concept. I'm not settled on the issue, however.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Shostak

... What about fatigue? Let's say that someone whose ST is Aided by 5 is berserk, and, while the spell is on, they come out of berserking and suffer the requisite 2 fatigue, bringing them down to 1 ST. Aid then expires. Do they die, or is the fatigue, like ST used for spell casting, forgiven?

Not enough information. What's bringing the ST down? You need to know how many actual wounds they have.

Fatigue isn't "forgiven" unless your GM doesn't care or it doesn't matter in the situation, but it rests off at 1 per 15 minutes.


Two different examples that both match your description:

Abe has ST 11, used 4 ST for spells, then got +5 ST from Aid, then took 9 damage, then lost 2 more fatigue from berserking, bringing them to 1 ST. Then the Aid wears off, and they collapse with ST 11, 9 damage, and 6 fatigue. 4 of the fatigue rests off in the next hour, bringing them to ST 0, and 15 minutes later they are awake but staggering at ST 1. 15 minutes' rest after that, they're ST 11 with 9 damage and no fatigue.

Bub has ST 10, +5 ST from Aid, took 12 damage, lost 2 fatigue from berserking, bringing them to 1 ST. Then the Aid wears off, and they are now ST 11 with 13 damage and 2 fatigue, dying. In 30 minutes the fatigue wears off and they are at ST 11 with 13 damage, and will die unless they get their wound physicked (or healing potioned) for at least 2 points within another 30 minutes.


(BTW, a related but separate issue: Whether fatigue can kill is probably yes RAW, but no has traditionally be a common house rule in original TFT. It also makes it easier to tell who's going to die or not - if wounds (not fatigue) is less than or equal to ST, they're not dying.)

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Not enough information. What's bringing the ST down? You need to know how many actual wounds they have.

Fatigue isn't "forgiven" unless your GM doesn't care or it doesn't matter in the situation, but it rests off at 1 per 15 minutes.


Two different examples that both match your description:

Abe has ST 11, used 4 ST for spells, then got +5 ST from Aid, then took 9 damage, then lost 2 more fatigue from berserking, bringing them to 1 ST. Then the Aid wears off, and they collapse with ST 11, 9 damage, and 6 fatigue. 4 of the fatigue rests off in the next hour, bringing them to ST 0, and 15 minutes later they are awake but staggering at ST 1. 15 minutes' rest after that, they're ST 11 with 9 damage and no fatigue.

Bub has ST 10, +5 ST from Aid, took 12 damage, lost 2 fatigue from berserking, bringing them to 1 ST. Then the Aid wears off, and they are now ST 11 with 13 damage and 2 fatigue, dying. In 30 minutes the fatigue wears off and they are at ST 11 with 13 damage, and will die unless they get their wound physicked (or healing potioned) for at least 2 points within another 30 minutes.


(BTW, a related but separate issue: Whether fatigue can kill is probably yes RAW, but no has traditionally be a common house rule in original TFT. It also makes it easier to tell who's going to die or not - if wounds (not fatigue) is less than or equal to ST, they're not dying.)

Skarg, I guess I'm not quite getting your position here. Let me see if I understand you.

In each of the following cases, Wizard has ST 1 and receives 3 ST from an Aid spell. Please let me know if you agree.

(1) Wizard casts 2 ST worth of spells. At the time the Aid wears off, he is at ST 1; the fatigue for spell casting came off the Aided ST.

(2) Wizard takes 2 wounds. At the time Aid wears off, he is at ST -1.

(3) Wizard ends a berserking session (ignore the implausibility of a berserk wizard) and so gains 2 fatigue. At the time Aid wears off, he is at ST -1.

What I'm getting at here is that if I'm reading you right, you're treating fatigue from spellcasting different than fatigue from berserk. But maybe I'm misunderstanding.

I don't think I'd use your house rule regarding death from fatigue. I think that using up fatigue in combat should be dangerous and if fatigue + wounds > ST, the guy's dying.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Fatigue isn't "forgiven" unless your GM doesn't care or it doesn't matter in the situation, but it rests off at 1 per 15 minutes.

By "forgiven" I am referring to the interpretation of some that fatigue that is accumulated from spell casting during Aid and equal to or less than the Aided ST vanishes after Aid expires.

Abe has ST 11, used 4 ST for spells, then got +5 ST from Aid, then took 9 damage, then lost 2 more fatigue from berserking, bringing them to 1 ST. Then the Aid wears off, and they collapse with ST 11, 9 damage, and 6 fatigue. 4 of the fatigue rests off in the next hour, bringing them to ST 0

I would not allow someone at negative ST to recover any fatigue, based on ITL 9 and 10.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Shostak

By "forgiven" I am referring to the interpretation of some that fatigue that is accumulated from spell casting during Aid and equal to or less than the Aided ST vanishes after Aid expires.

Oh, yes. If someone casts a spell while an Aid is active, it would use the Aid ST.

Originally Posted by Shostak

I would not allow someone at negative ST to recover any fatigue, based on ITL 9 and 10.

Well, that would make it even simpler.

I like the reading/reasoning that goes:

ITL p. 9:

To rest, you must sit or lie down quietly, doing nothing else. For every 15 minutes (game time) that a figure rests, he/she can regain one ST point, up to full ST.

As long as they're "just barely dead" / dying, and so lying there doing nothing, I like to count that as rest for such people who have fatigue. I think it's reasonable and interesting that such figures may wake up on their own after the fatigue wears off.

I think it fits really well with the very common pre-Legacy house rule that fatigue doesn't kill people, in which case it plays exactly like it used to (unless you rule you only have one hour to get back to 0+ ST).

But it is simpler and certainly another at-least-as-valid reading that "just barely dead" / dying figures don't recover fatigue.