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Old 06-26-2022, 05:45 PM   #31
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Default Re: Deindustrialized World3 22nd Century

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Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
Modern techniques make nuclear be 100% POLLUTION (OR WASTE) FREE.
Capital letters do not turn a falsehood true. While some portion of radioactive wastes can be productively recycled, you're inevitably going to have a fair amount of fission byproducts and neutron-activated materials that are hazardous but not useful. The quantity is not super large, but claiming that there's none is straight up false.
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Old 06-26-2022, 06:06 PM   #32
KarlKost
 
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Default Re: Deindustrialized World3 22nd Century

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Capital letters do not turn a falsehood true. While some portion of radioactive wastes can be productively recycled, you're inevitably going to have a fair amount of fission byproducts and neutron-activated materials that are hazardous but not useful. The quantity is not super large, but claiming that there's none is straight up false.
You are misunderstanding what I said. I didnt say there is no waste - which is why I placed an explanation right down bellow, exactly under the place where I said that "there is no waste", because I knew that the first thing that would happen if I said that is that people would rush to correct me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKost
(let me explain, there IS nuclear waste, but that causes NO harm AT ALL).
But I guess I failed to make myself understood.

Yes, there is WASTE, but there is no IMPACT - ie Nuclear cause NO pollution. Unlike... Any other power source. Coal, oil, gas, even hidro and solar, they all cause an impact (the larger being coal, the lesser being solar).

Nuclear causes none, due to the modern techniques of containment.

The wastes are sealed away and buried without causing any harm; some is even recicled, what it isnt will safely decay away over time until it becomes harmless once more, in a totally secure environment.

The first Nuclear Power Plants were... Unsafe.

That's not the case anymore. The technology on it have come a long way, and they now are 100% secure.
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Old 06-26-2022, 06:14 PM   #33
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Default Re: Deindustrialized World3 22nd Century

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Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec View Post
This might make an interesting game background.
Assume the Club of Rome is right. Industrial Civilization collapses in a decade or two from resource depletion and pollution.
Recoverable fissile and fossil fuels are depleted to insignificance (but other metals can be scavenged from the infrastructure). Climate is much warmer and, until the oceans catch up and can start evaporating water in equilibrium, drier. Even when the rainfall recovers (23rd Century?) it will be in different areas.
What technology would we have, in particular? The internet I suppose is gone, but could shortwave radio be maintained, probably using crystal radios and hydroelectric powered broadcasting, for example?
Any thoughts?
Sterling Engines work by a difference in temperature. The first solar powered machinery was demonstrated in Paris in the late 18th century. Solar powered water pumps were almost commercially viable in Egypt in 1908. So solar power would be part of this world. Growing algae for fermentation into alcohol, or perhaps genetically engineered to produce hydrocarbons directly (their are plants that naturally produce hydrocarbons, so it is possible.) Seems like a workable energy source.

Hydroelectric needn't be only dams. Any source of flowing water will do. And wind is growing more viable. So neither computers not the internet is out.
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Old 06-26-2022, 06:16 PM   #34
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Default Re: Deindustrialized World3 22nd Century

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By fissiles you mean uranium and the like, right? How could those possibly be depleted to insignificance, especially in only a matter of a few decades?
Good point! And Thorium would be explored as well, and it is far more abundant than uranium.
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Old 06-26-2022, 06:17 PM   #35
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Default Re: Deindustrialized World3 22nd Century

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Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
You are misunderstanding what I said. I didnt say there is no waste - which is why I placed an explanation right down bellow, exactly under the place where I said that "there is no waste", because I knew that the first thing that would happen if I said that is that people would rush to correct me.


But I guess I failed to make myself understood.

Yes, there is WASTE, but there is no IMPACT
I read that part. As it was equally false, I didn't bother to quote it.
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Old 06-26-2022, 06:24 PM   #36
Willy
 
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Default Re: Deindustrialized World3 22nd Century

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Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
SNIP
Germany has being the largest consumer of solar and wind in the world.

Do you know what's the percentage of their grid that solar and wind are responsible for?
The impressive mark of 5%.

Meanwhile, France has become a lot more independent from Russian gas by having 70% of their energy demands come from nuclear.
SNIP
I donīt know where you get your data, but this is absolutely downright wrong.
I just answer to this 2 in correct facts and spare the rest.

First 5% for Solar and Wind Ernergy together in germany, is outdated by decades. Even wikipedia english version says 2020 27% wind + 10,5% solar in the public grid, it has been more since, even if germany misses the self set targets by a big margin. The old 2017 data wiki german version says 13,3% Wind and 6,1% Solar. You see my point? Whichever source you took it must be totally outdated maybe pre 2000.

Yes france uses nuclear power, a lot of it, but guess why german lignite-fired power plants have run the last years full power? The french are buying german electricity. Every Watt they can get! Why? Because the nuclear power plants are old and need to be replaced, but france couldnīd afford the several billion high price tag. Therefore they asked the EU to label nuclear power as renewable becvause this way they could get access to the funds. Every time a few are off line due to necessary maintanance, not to mention the water level in some waterways who cool the plants are getting low due to changed weather patterns. Meanwhile our local energy producer RWE with one of the biggest lignite fired power plant in germany is getting a golden nose because of this. I live just several miles near the plant. The german dirty energy export is a common theme here.

You can take a look at the energy import export of EU nations via Wikipedia or the national gouvernments, same goes for the energy mix as for all other points.

Writing in capitals or telling wrong facts doesnīt help this threat to get a outview on a earth in the middle of a crisis. Please stay with the facts, even if you donīt like them. Sorry that I have to be so blunt.
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Old 06-26-2022, 06:45 PM   #37
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Default Re: Deindustrialized World3 22nd Century

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Originally Posted by Willy View Post
I donīt know where you get your data, but this is absolutely downright wrong.
I just answer to this 2 in correct facts and spare the rest.

First 5% for Solar and Wind Ernergy together in germany, is outdated by decades. Even wikipedia english version says 2020 27% wind + 10,5% solar in the public grid, it has been more since, even if germany misses the self set targets by a big margin. The old 2017 data wiki german version says 13,3% Wind and 6,1% Solar. You see my point? Whichever source you took it must be totally outdated maybe pre 2000.

Yes france uses nuclear power, a lot of it, but guess why german lignite-fired power plants have run the last years full power? The french are buying german electricity. Every Watt they can get! Why? Because the nuclear power plants are old and need to be replaced, but france couldnīd afford the several billion high price tag. Therefore they asked the EU to label nuclear power as renewable becvause this way they could get access to the funds. Every time a few are off line due to necessary maintanance, not to mention the water level in some waterways who cool the plants are getting low due to changed weather patterns. Meanwhile our local energy producer RWE with one of the biggest lignite fired power plant in germany is getting a golden nose because of this. I live just several miles near the plant. The german dirty energy export is a common theme here.

You can take a look at the energy import export of EU nations via Wikipedia or the national gouvernments, same goes for the energy mix as for all other points.

Writing in capitals or telling wrong facts doesnīt help this threat to get a outview on a earth in the middle of a crisis. Please stay with the facts, even if you donīt like them. Sorry that I have to be so blunt.
Very well. So it's a little bigger of a margin. That still doesnt change the fact that it's insufficient.

And that's still Germany, which is country that has most heavily invested in those. And while Germany is indeed a large economy, the 4th largest in the world, it's still a small percentage of global GDP and smaller even in populational terms.

So it doesnt change the fact that it is not viable as a global solution.

Yes, nuclear is expensive, but it's the only viable alternative.

The cheapest solution is coal, which is what the chinese are using to turn their country into pure poison.

So that's the choice, clean and expensive but reliable, clean expensive and unreliable (solar and wind) or dirt and cheap.

So make your choice.
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Old 06-26-2022, 07:00 PM   #38
Inky
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: UK
Default Re: Deindustrialized World3 22nd Century

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec View Post
This might make an interesting game background.
Assume the Club of Rome is right. Industrial Civilization collapses in a decade or two from resource depletion and pollution.
Recoverable fissile and fossil fuels are depleted to insignificance (but other metals can be scavenged from the infrastructure). Climate is much warmer and, until the oceans catch up and can start evaporating water in equilibrium, drier. Even when the rainfall recovers (23rd Century?) it will be in different areas.
What technology would we have, in particular? The internet I suppose is gone, but could shortwave radio be maintained, probably using crystal radios and hydroelectric powered broadcasting, for example?
Any thoughts?
There's some variables (or things left up to the GM) that might make a drastic difference to how things play out in this background.

(1) How long in advance do people know it's happening/how long have they been preparing? Reserves of coal, oil and gas seem to be monitored pretty closely, by their owners if nobody else. They often pronounce on how much is left in a particular well or field. Unless something very odd happens (say, an ancient earth god turns up and takes it all away), it sounds as if the world would know years or decades in advance if fossil fuels were going to run out. And if national governments acted as intelligently as an individual human, they'd be frantically working to get alternatives set up - alternative fuel sources, rearranging their supply chains and infrastructure to depend less on armies of cars and trucks, et cetera.
How much they have prepared in advance is another matter. Politics might mean that some or all countries didn't do much, even if the scientists warned them years in advance. It might even be less than nothing - no preparations made, but everyone spends the time before the real crisis sets in fighting furiously over the little bit that's left. In fact, that doesn't seem to be all that far off what's happening now.

(2) How quickly can they get things back again?
For instance, lots of things - solar panels, hydroelectric plants, computers, etc. - will last a long time, even if new ones aren't being made. They can get by for some time without a serious TL decrease, even if nobody has the resources available to make new ones. But at some point those things will start to break down, and if they can't get manufacture of new equipment/new parts under way before too much of it does, they're in trouble. That's possibly not so much a variable as a predictable result - how long it would, in practice, take before they could spare the time and resources to do that.


Also, they theoretically could have lots of things, but not all of them at once. It depends what they spent their precious supplies of renewable electricity, vegetable oil and ethanol on. They might, for instance, have some Internet but no cars or some cars but no Internet or some mixture of the two. Especially if, as malloyd says, there are in fact some fossil fuels left, just rare.
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Last edited by Inky; 06-26-2022 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 06-26-2022, 07:17 PM   #39
KarlKost
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
Default Re: Deindustrialized World3 22nd Century

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willy View Post
I donīt know where you get your data, but this is absolutely downright wrong.
I just answer to this 2 in correct facts and spare the rest.

First 5% for Solar and Wind Ernergy together in germany, is outdated by decades. Even wikipedia english version says 2020 27% wind + 10,5% solar in the public grid, it has been more since, even if germany misses the self set targets by a big margin. The old 2017 data wiki german version says 13,3% Wind and 6,1% Solar. You see my point? Whichever source you took it must be totally outdated maybe pre 2000.

Yes france uses nuclear power, a lot of it, but guess why german lignite-fired power plants have run the last years full power? The french are buying german electricity. Every Watt they can get! Why? Because the nuclear power plants are old and need to be replaced, but france couldnīd afford the several billion high price tag. Therefore they asked the EU to label nuclear power as renewable becvause this way they could get access to the funds. Every time a few are off line due to necessary maintanance, not to mention the water level in some waterways who cool the plants are getting low due to changed weather patterns. Meanwhile our local energy producer RWE with one of the biggest lignite fired power plant in germany is getting a golden nose because of this. I live just several miles near the plant. The german dirty energy export is a common theme here.

You can take a look at the energy import export of EU nations via Wikipedia or the national gouvernments, same goes for the energy mix as for all other points.

Writing in capitals or telling wrong facts doesnīt help this threat to get a outview on a earth in the middle of a crisis. Please stay with the facts, even if you donīt like them. Sorry that I have to be so blunt.
Bah I cant find any one reliable source. I have found sources that goes from 50% to 15% of consumption from renewables in the last year, but they invariably clump hidro and biomass and biomass togheter. I found some sorces claiming total consumption in Germany is more or less 500TW with wind producing 113TW, which is impressive if it's true because it would be over 25% from wind alone, but I dont know how trustworthy that would be since I see other more reliable sources that place total renewables (including bio and hidro) at 18%. Also, it appears that a good amount of those data from solar and wind (mostly wind, solar is almost insignificant) comes from offshore, so while that may look good at the statistics, I wouldnt count that towards the German power generation.

Anyway, be that as it may, Germany has only about 80 million people. No small country by any amount, but that still is only about 1/90 of total humanity. And Germany on top of that is a very wealthy country capable of paying the high costs of installing all the several thousands of wind turbines - something that even other european countries cant keep up.

I'll take your data at face value since I cant find precise, concise numbers. But it doesnt change my point, even if it's a some above the 5% mark. Germany has a relatively small population compared to larger countries - behind China, India, US, Indonesia, Pakistan, Brazil and several others - and is the country that has invested the most in it - and it's still no where near close to satisfactory. So, if it has not been effective for the number 1 with a medium sized country and medium sized population, dont expect it to be effective for the entire world.

The other thing I also noticed is the huge oscilation of generation between each year. Solar of course, at night it's zero, so I dont even know why to consider it. But Wind, year to year there are cases of reduction of up to 15% in generation, even with a constant yearly expansion of the grid
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Old 06-26-2022, 07:23 PM   #40
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Default Re: Deindustrialized World3 22nd Century

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I read that part. As it was equally false, I didn't bother to quote it.
Just saying something is false doesnt make you right.
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