Compilation of source material for new players

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Belisar

Whenever possible it will make use of the most simplified options available from official GURPS supplements, so no homebrew rules will be included.[/LIST]

I'd definitely put the Delvers to Grow books in as "character generation done quick and clean." DtGr also has support for automation in both GCS and GCA5.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I find that table seriously lacking in that the only game mechanics it provides for playing is combat. What about, for example, social interaction? Search rolls, reaction rolls, influence rolls, and the like are a vital part of many campaigns; some of my campaigns make much more use of social interaction than of combat.

I second this.

You don't have to go into huge detail, but a section on "Making Friends and Influencing People" would be helpful.

[Belisar]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I second this.

You don't have to go into huge detail, but a section on "Making Friends and Influencing People" would be helpful.

It will be added in due time. As I told him, this table is not complete and a work in progress. But I agree, social interactions are definitively an integral part in roleplaying and will be addressed.

[Belisar]

Update: I'll be on vacation for 3 weeks, in case you wonder that this post won't change for a while. Nonetheless, keep the feedback coming, I'll work it up when I'm back.

[Pursuivant]

With a project like this, there's going to be a tension between wanting to cover most situations and keeping it short and simple.

For new players, it might be helpful to explain what attribute and skill levels mean. (e.g., ST 8, "mediocre, elderly person or child", skill 12, "typical trained professional in a non-combat job, inexperienced fighters.")

BAD modifiers should also point out bonuses for utterly trivial (+10) or routine non-combat (+4) tasks.

They could explain that the GM should only require rolls for tasks which are important to game play or where a character could possibly fail with serious negative consequences (i.e., no Driving skill rolls required to get to work on a daily basis, even if it's raining or snowing, but skill rolls might be required to avoid going out of control if you're in a car chase or speeding in hazardous conditions).

Include modifiers for Time Spent if not already included in BAD.

Explain the concept of Default Skill, since that's a distinctive, highly useful GURPS concept. (i.e., defaults to a related skill at -3 to -7, useful for simple tasks which normally carry a skill bonus when used with the correct skill).

A lot of information can be reduced to stats on a cheat sheet, like how fast you can climb or how far you can jump.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Belisar

Regarding skills from p. 12 on, trying to explain the concept of Defaulting is placed too soon, as crunch it should better mentioned later (if at all in a Lite document).

I fully agree. I think that at most, Defaults should be a simple "Attribute-4 for Easy, Attribute-5 for Average, Attribute-6 for Hard and Attribute-7 for Very Hard" skills.

Or, even better, I think that for a Lite document ALL skills should just simply be "Average" (so dont even mention it), and thus ALL skills simply Default to Attribute-5 and that's it - super easy.

Originally Posted by Belisar

I'm aware the skill list is compressed and far from exhaustive. But if it's a stripped down list, why not stripping it further down where it makes sense? Is it really necessary to list Climbing, Jumping, Swimming as single skills, when Athletics would nicely fit as a container for those closely related skills? At least in a beginner friendly introductory document? There is still too much crunch cramped in a document that tries to explain the very bare bones of the system to beginners. For instance, is it really necessary to list overly detailed modifier for climbing (p. 22) like rope-up, rope-down, with or without equipment? Such crunch bits are a real off turner in a supposed Lite document (other examples for too much detail, the Throwing Distance table, Postures, Speed and Range, Falling Velocity).

100% agree with this. Really, no need to describe tons of situational modifiers for each and every skill. Better than doing that, just simply add "Athletics". In fact, most of the Wildcard Skills should just simply be the Standard skills for Lite Gurps (but without all the complications of Wildcard Skills obviously). You wanna play fast and lose, not get into detail about how fast you'll climb a rope.

Instead, just add an entry while explaining skills - maybe after costs and whatnot - with the title "Dice Modifiers", and just say - apply those for skills: haste -1 for 10% less time; extra time, all the way to +5 to 30x longer; equipment - none -10, all the way to +2 for fine quality, and that's pretty much it.

Originally Posted by Belisar

And a main drawback is, it lacks examples, there are no examples to certain mechanics like combat, skill usage, a filled out Char Sheet with commentary. It might sound nitpicky but I just wanted to demonstrate that the Lite document is not really a suitable "Read this First" document, when introducing GURPS, it rather adds to confusing new players.

Again, I fully agree. Yes, examples would be great.

Originally Posted by Belisar

It is obvious, that the document is written with the mindset of a GURPS aficionado for players already comfortable with GURPS.

That's what I always say, that Gurps players try to sell Gurps to others but always with the mindsets of a Gurps Veteran who already knows all the rules for hiking from memory.

Originally Posted by Belisar

This out of the way, let the compiling begin! Any suggestion which material/article should be the very first read when it comes to the first contact with a new player?

Not exactly one specific material, because there are stuff all over the place, it would truly require compiling several things from different sources; for example, Powers is indispensable to expand the advantages.

I guess the problem for begginers aint even the Advantages, Disadvantages and Modifiers. Those are easy actually. The problem is skills, a ton of skills, with each one being either Easy, Average, Hard or Very Hard, thus having different values, they have tons of unique modifiers and tons of unique Defaults, and there's familiarity, and then comes mandatory and optional specializations, and after all that comes the Techniques... And perks to add up to the mess... That's where I thing that the mess starts. With skills (a little with Quirks and Perks too).

Then comes combat, and this is where it gets really messed up. So, so many rules.

Those two areas need simplification for new players, beyond any doubt.

[KarlKost]

So, my advice will be as it always is:

Advantages/Disadvantages: I honestly think that's the easiest part (aside from Attributes), so I would keep it. That's also the great seller of Gurps, making customizable abilities.

Enhancements/Limitations: again, not complex, and where Gurps really shines. I would add however the considerations of Powers, with the many examples on how to use them for each Advantage (it could include examples on Disadvantages too) on how to create unique abilities with them - for example, just bellow "Visualization", include "with Reduced Time 7 (+140%) it becomes instantaneous, being usable during combat, albeit at 1/3 of MoS due to the changing nature of combat" and others.

Perks and Quirks: drop it.

Skills: simpler lists. No differences between skills, all are "Average" (no need to mention). Modifiers are the basic from BAD with speed and equip modifiers at most. Default is always a flat Attribute-5. Drop familiarity, drop specializations, drop Techniques.

Combat: here is where my Gurps colleagues hate me, but my suggestions are:
- damage: flat. Forget "thrust" or "swing" damage; each level of ST has ONE amount of damage. Muscular weapons add or deduce from that. For example: ST 20, 2d+1 damage (just random hypothetical value). Big 2 hands sword, +5 damage (therefore 20 ST deals 2d+6 with it).
- Damage Resistance/Reduction: flat. RD reduces damage by it's value. No more to be said or added, drop anything besides that.
- Bleeding, disease, poison, hunger or any other hazards: flat damage on either HP or FP (or even both). No further complications added.
- Hit Locations: drop it.
- Combat Maneuvers: drop it. Only maneuvers are "Attack" and "Defense" (dodge or parry)
- Dodge: fine as is.
- Parry/Block: flat number unrelated to skills. Each weapon offers a different bonus/penalty to Parry. Shields offer bigger bonuses. Instead of calling those as "parry" and "block" separetely, just call it "Defense". For example, "Basic Defense is 10; large shields give +5, longswords give +2 and rapier swords +3. No more.
- Movement: up to moving speed.
- Ranged Attacks: no 1/2 D, no aim no nothing. Flat damage, each weapon may give a bonus or penalty to use them; no distance modifiers.
- No knockback or other special conditions and situations.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Belisar

Of course, you are an adult and free to chose your own destiny. No need to ask me for approval. =)

You maybe missed the very first sentence in my first post. I'm happy to refresh your memory:

If you chose to partake in helping new players out, nonetheless, your feedback is always welcome.

Experienced players were new players at some point.

When I was a new player it would have driven me away to be given a list of volumes in addition to the basic set that I needed to buy to play.

Is it really necessary to list Climbing, Jumping, Swimming as single skills...

Yes, it is, unless for some reason you think every pearl diver should be an expert moutaineer.

[Pursuivant]

The simple solution to big skill lists, odd defaults, etc. is to just use Wildcard skills.

Wildcard skills are all VH x 5 CP, don't allow defaults from other skills, and are a much better fit for fast, rules-lite games.

[Willy]

I´m the opinion that we can let out some parts for easier entry to the core game mechanics, but each part we take should be according to the rules in the Basic Set and / or specific supplements. That includes the needed points to learn them.

Because if we do something like all skills are just average difficulty, the newby get´s a easier entry, but once he will play "normal" GURPS he will stumble over that tripwires, same goes for other point costs. He had basically to learn 2 different games with closely related rules, which will lead to frustation.

Anything we take should be a basic layer, which works in itself and the foundation for added complexity and the full rules.

Like the combat system, you don´t start with the full system optional wounding rules and so on. You start with basic combat system, which is complex enough, and from there go further - if you want to!

We should keep in mind that a new player will not have a experienced player as mentor more often than not. He should be able to grasp the system by himself. If he is pointed to the right sources.