GURPS MAGIC: Day in the life of a spell inventor...

[Aldric]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

RAW you have to spend the point on the spell you're inventing.

Yes, just suggesting that, when it turns out that spell doesn't work, which btw requires a crit success on the Prototype roll, you instead apply it to Thaumatology.

That's the point of this discussion, getting to a prototype that is NOT a botched concept. If it's a good spell, there's no problem.

I really meant "spent on the spell you're reseaching", your current prototype may be a crit fail, so you'll never cast it succesfully, but it's still the same spell. When (after you get your crit success and realize your prototype doesn't work) you go back to Concept, and when you're ready to try a new Prototype (valid or presumed) you already have a point in the spell.

Yeah, but MAs are at least cinematic; we'd have to assume that ALL spells inventors have them, which isnt realistic

There won't be that many spell inventors with the rules as they are, and they'll most likely be quite above the norm for mages.

Not an issue for spells with 0 prereqs or 1 to 5 prereqs perhaps. But what about spells with 23 prereqs?

Well, the mage that's researchig a spell with 23 prereqs is confident enough in his raw abilities to cast it cerimonially, so with 1 CP he has skill 15 with that spell, while taking the same penalties that apply to the Concept roll (that -23) with none of the positive modifiers for Extra Time, Luck, Versatile, Visualization (if you think it can be used) that he had on the Concept roll.

Unless you use assistants and accept they can provide a bonus with extra energy (they're useless otherwise) any mage that thinks he can make the Prototype roll will have no trouble with the Concept

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Aldric

Yes, just suggesting that, when it turns out that spell doesn't work, which btw requires a crit success on the Prototype roll, you instead apply it to Thaumatology.

I guess you could houserule it that way, but RAW would you have spend 1CP on a botched Concept spell which will never work (except as a magnet of nastyness) but that you errouneously believe it will

Originally Posted by Aldric

I really meant "spent on the spell you're reseaching", your current prototype may be a crit fail, so you'll never cast it succesfully, but it's still the same spell. When (after you get your crit success and realize your prototype doesn't work) you go back to Concept, and when you're ready to try a new Prototype (valid or presumed) you already have a point in the spell.

The problem here is about botching the CONCEPT, and thus moving on to Prototype thinking it will work, not so much botching Prototype (which would just means soaking the nasty and "try again")

Now, already having the point on the new spell... Hmm... I havent thought about that. RAW says nothing of the like - but neither says AGAINST it.

I guess that, if you have spent a point into "Origami Spell", and is trying to Prototype based on an unworkable Concept, you still have 1 point into "Origami Spell" nevertheless, even if you have to go back to the drawing board, right?

Yeah, I guess you might be right, but if G.Magic had that written it would avoid all the confusion.

Originally Posted by Aldric

There won't be that many spell inventors with the rules as they are, and they'll most likely be quite above the norm for mages.

Sure, but requiring Thaumatological evolution to rely on a bunch of Leonardo DaVincis alone would make it a very stagnant field indeed.

Originally Posted by Aldric

Well, the mage that's researchig a spell with 23 prereqs is confident enough in his raw abilities to cast it cerimonially, so with 1 CP he has skill 15 with that spell, while taking the same penalties that apply to the Concept roll (that -23) with none of the positive modifiers for Extra Time, Luck, Versatile, Visualization (if you think it can be used) that he had on the Concept roll.

Unless you use assistants and accept they can provide a bonus with extra energy (they're useless otherwise) any mage that thinks he can make the Prototype roll will have no trouble with the Concept

Such a mage would be unexistant thou. I mean, the Prototype will NOT be a roll of your Thaumatology 40+. It will be a roll of the spell you only just acquired, meaning said spell would be at IQ+Magery -2 for a hard spell or -3 for a VH. Assuming a DaVinci with IQ 20 and the max Magery of 6 from DFRPG (which by itself is already the double of the Basic), that gives 26-2 = 24 for a Hard spell. Still nowhere near the -36, not even if you slip the +5 from trying a version of something that already exists.

You'd have to be a God with Magery 10 and IQ 30 to have a chance, a super genius alone wouldnt suffice.

[Aldric]

Disregarding for a sec the CP spent on the spell being researched.

I looked at how you make a spell inventor following the rules from Basic and Magic and ignoring Gadgeteering for now.

IQ 20 Seems to be the max for humans
Magery 4 Suggested to cap it at 3 or 4 at best

Thaumatology IQ+10 Under Maintaining skill this is still below the level where you have to practice daily or lose a point.

Versatile for that +1 to invention rolls

Luck for those 3 rolls for the Concept

Extra Time I think it caps at +5

For a total of 3 rolls at a skill of 40. If you allow the mage to get a Wisdom item (he can't cast the spell on himself, but the constant item version with its hefty energy cost may not have that same limitation) he can even probably get that -36 roll

But none of this means anything when he then needs to cast the spell cerimonially. He's at Att -2 or -3 with 1 CP spent but can't use Luck, can't use Wisdom and most likely nor even Versatile, but that -23 or -36 are still there, and he needs skill 15 to cast the spell.

Reversing that, if he somehow can cast the spell, that means his IQ has to be about 40-41 for the basic spell and 53-54 for the enchantment research, and at that point the Concept roll is an almost automatic success.

Hopefully I've missed some numbers somewhere.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Aldric

Disregarding for a sec the CP spent on the spell being researched.

I looked at how you make a spell inventor following the rules from Basic and Magic and ignoring Gadgeteering for now.

IQ 20 Seems to be the max for humans
Magery 4 Suggested to cap it at 3 or 4 at best

Thaumatology IQ+10 Under Maintaining skill this is still below the level where you have to practice daily or lose a point.

Versatile for that +1 to invention rolls

Luck for those 3 rolls for the Concept

Extra Time I think it caps at +5

For a total of 3 rolls at a skill of 40. If you allow the mage to get a Wisdom item (he can't cast the spell on himself, but the constant item version with its hefty energy cost may not have that same limitation) he can even probably get that -36 roll

But none of this means anything when he then needs to cast the spell cerimonially. He's at Att -2 or -3 with 1 CP spent but can't use Luck, can't use Wisdom and most likely nor even Versatile, but that -23 or -36 are still there, and he needs skill 15 to cast the spell.

Reversing that, if he somehow can cast the spell, that means his IQ has to be about 40-41 for the basic spell and 53-54 for the enchantment research, and at that point the Concept roll is an almost automatic success.

Hopefully I've missed some numbers somewhere.

Yes, it is something around that yes; and I had forgotten about Versatile. But yes, it would require some riduculous God-like IQ like that, I was doing all the math before but now Im too lazy. -36 with min 15 for enchant that's a minimum of 51 of effective skill that the mage needs to be allowed to roll for the prototype at all; with Magery 4 (which is already a bit overextending, since Magery 4 would typically only go for races which have Magery 1 as a racial trait, such as elves), that goes to 47; since it's Att-2 or -3, it gives AT LEAST IQ 49 or 50... Is that right?

Now, there's that part about the Prototype being like Q&D, I dont remember exactly and Im too lazy right now to check, but if that's true then each assistant would give an extra penalty of -1, so they would have to give even more energy to offset that; at some point, that would become prohibitive, given that the bonuses from extra energy are based on multiples of energy expenses, so at some point an extra assistant would require more energy than it could supply (even with Powerstones and "Talisman Paut") just to offset their own penalties.

Besides, what would the base cost for said extra energy be? If the Prototype is the Prototype for Enchantment, that could well mean up to 5.000 energy as the "base" or even more, to which even achieving enough energy for a single +1 to the roll would be impossible.

A really see no way around this except for an enlightned Leonardo DaVinci showing every 1.000 or so years just to highly and fastly advance the thaumatological tech with their ungodly amounts of Cosmic Modular Abilities

[Aldric]

So, unless we got something wrong, our genius inventor might have a lot of ideas, but will have a hard time actually implementing them.

With IQ 20, Magery 4 and 1 CP, Hard spells with 7 prerequisites are possible, or V.hard spell with 6.
To be able to make the Prototype roll on other spells he'd need to either invest more CP in them or get a bonus from extra energy.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Aldric

So, unless we got something wrong, our genius inventor might have a lot of ideas, but will have a hard time actually implementing them.

With IQ 20, Magery 4 and 1 CP, Hard spells with 7 prerequisites are possible, or V.hard spell with 6.
To be able to make the Prototype roll on other spells he'd need to either invest more CP in them or get a bonus from extra energy.

That would have to be it, yes.

And it's pretty impossible to do for the higher count spells and enchants, except for Gods or I dont know Visualization with stupid levels of Reliable AND Super Luck or insane levels of MA

[munin]

Originally Posted by hal

… Since magic items increase the Spell Prerequisite count by an additional 13. …

The rules for spell invention do say this (M15), but Enchant only adds at most 11 to a prereq count (and often less because of overlaps), so I think this is a typo?

Originally Posted by Aldric

… Hopefully I've missed some numbers somewhere.

Here's what I've got so far:

• IQ 20
• Magery 3
  • Magery 3 is the suggested maximum for "classic fantasy" (B66). You could also argue for Magery 4 as that's the standard maximum for Talents.
• Thaumatology at IQ+10 (including Magery … of any amount)
  • Again, there's really no limit to skills. Skills above Attribute+10 optionally require daily maintenance (B294), but they are still possible. Anthing else is a setting decision.
• prototype spell skill at IQ+0 for Very Hard spells (including Magery 3)
• +1 or +2 … If the player’s description is especially clear or clever (B473)
• +4 from assistants with skill 20+ (prototype roll only)
• +4 or more for additional energy (prototype roll only, M12)
  • This is … not very well defined in how it applies to spell invention. Theoretically, if you're trying to prototype a spell with a cost of 1 energy, you could get a bonus of +103 using 100 unskilled spectators.
• +2 or more for complementary skills
  • I see complementary skills as different than assistants. Assistants spent a point on the concept skill just like you did, and they're right there with you doing calculations, solving problems, etc. An example of a complementary skill is you realize you need 57 light sources but you're not sure how to arrange them, and then you realize the problem is similar to faceting a gem, so you ask someone else to make a complemetary roll against Jeweler. If they succeed, they've made your job easier (you get a bonus to skill). GURPS Social Engineering has the most complete treatment of complementary skills (p. 21), I believe.
• +2 to skill to perform a specific, lengthy mental task using Autohypnosis (B179)
  • I'd say you make this roll every day to "get in the inventing mindset."
• +5 with a Hyper-Specialization perk (GURPS Power-Ups 2: Perks, p. 16)
  • Instead of just trying to find a solution every day, you spend a few months studying the problem first.
• +5 for a Wisdom +5 magic item (M135, concept roll only)
• +3 for a Bless spell (M129, concept roll only)
  • Magic can't help you cast magic, which is what you're doing with the prototype roll, but magic can help with the concept roll against Thaumatology.
• +3 for Single-Minded (maybe, B85)
  • The GM could decide this doesn't apply, but the GM could do anything so I'm including it.
• +1 for Versatile (B96)
• roll three times with the Luck advantage (B66) or a Luck elixir (M216)
  • Luck roughly averages to a +2 or +3 bonus, I believe. For the purpose of this calculation, let's call it +2.
• penalty reductions for Gadgeteer (B56-57)
  • I'm not aware of Gadgeteer being defined for regular magic spell invention anywhere (like it is for Alchemy), but I would assume it's something like "reduce penalty by 6, then divide by 2 (round in the negative direction)". Quick Gadgeteer probably also reduces prototype costs and time by a factor of 100 or so.

I didn't include Visualization (B96) in this list. I don't see how you can visualize inventing — you can't visualize something you don't know yet.

Some other bonuses that aren't applicable to the invention of totally new spells, but I'm including for completeness:

• +5 if you have a working model you’re trying to copy, or +2 if the device already exists but you don’t have a model (B473)
  • You've seen the spell or you know it exists, but you need to work it out yourself for some reason.
• +1 to +5 if the item is a variant on a existing one (B473)
  • I'd say this applies to any spell which requires "specialization" (like Shapeshifting), or if you're inventing a new TL version of a spell (petroleum from Create Fuel/TL5 is a "variant" on lamp oil from Create Fuel/TL3)

Possible penalties:

• -5 penalty for any spell in a college in which the researcher knows no spells (M15)
  • Applicable for the first spell invented in a college (most of which have a prereq count of 0, but not all), but after that you should learn at least one spell in a college before trying to invent others.
• -5 penalty in a low-mana zone (M15)
  • Move somewhere else?
• -5 if the basic technology is totally new to the campaign (regardless of TL) (B473)
  • Applicable to … the first spell invented ever? After that, the "basic technology" exists, I think.
• -5 if the device is one TL above the inventor’s TL (B473)
  • This will be applicable to new versions of /TL spells, but the variant bonus should help to offset this.
• The rules for spell invention also mention "ceremonial magic penalties for assistants" (M15). Not sure what that is. Since spell prototyping is "similar to enchantment" (M15), maybe it's like Quick and Dirty enchantment (but taking all day)? In that case unskilled spectator bonuses probably wouldn't work (well, one unskilled spectator might get you +4 for energy but -1 for assisting, for net +3?).
• -1 to -10 (GM’s discretion) if the inventor must make do with anything less than the most advanced tools and facilities for his TL. (B474, prototype roll only)
  • I assume the prototype costs (M15) cover this.

So, if I'm doing all the math right, for the concept roll you could be rolling against Thaumatology 56 (plus a number of bonuses from complementary skills), and for the prototype roll you could be rolling against skill 39 (plus possible bonuses for unskilled spectators, and again a number of bonuses from complementary skills).

The highest published prereq count is 32 for Transmogrification (Thaum267), and I don't think Transmogrification already has Enchant in its prereqs (but Transmogrification already has a few colleges in its prereqs so there's going to be some overlap there). So prototyping a Transmogrification magic item is going to be difficult — you're going to need Gadgeteer or a lot of complementary skills here.

Next you have Doppelganger and Move Terrain at prereq count 29, and Wraith at 24, but they already have Enchant in their prereqs.

The next highest prereq count without Enchant already possibly in its prereq count (like Draw Power), is Rebuild at 22 but it doesn't have a magic item to be researched.

At this point everything easier should be inventable, even without the sketchy unskilled spectator issue. So except possibly for the Transmogrification magic item, everything seems inventable.

The rarity of all these attributes, advantages, and skills is a setting decision. Though once you figure out Great Wish (published prereq count 18, but already includes Enchant), inventing — and, well, everything — gets a lot easier.

One more question: When inventing spells in the Enchantment college, do you still need to invent the "spell" first before inventing the enchantment?

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by munin

SNIP

I'll answer in detail soon, but the thing here is about realism rather than player Munchinikism. For instance, how many real world Gadgeteers was there in? Thomas Eddison, DaVinci, Tesla and... That's it?

You see, 3 people throughout the entirety of history to develop ALL the field of "applied thaumatology" seems a bit unrealistic.

Gadgeteer is great for comic books and for cool concepts of player characters, but it is a rather unrealistic and super rare trait. It's basically a special case of an Unusual Background.

[hal]

Originally Posted by munin

The rules for spell invention do say this (M15), but Enchant only adds at most 11 to a prereq count (and often less because of overlaps), so I think this is a typo?

You make a valid point to a degree. The more spells a character has, the more what he knows, will fulfill prerequisites. In theory, 2 spells from each of Air, Fire, Water, and Earth colleges - not only helps you gain one spell that required 2 spells from each elemental college, but can also count as requisite counts towards Enchantment. The problem isn't that. The problem as defined is that each prerequisite count is the SHORTEST requisite count to arrive at the ability to study a given spell. Then the ENCHANTMENT requisite count adds an additional +13. Now - let's suppose for instance, knowing a spell actually adds a +5 bonus towards the study of the enhantment version of that spell....

Isn't it odd that each SPELL teaches you not only the spell itself, but contains the information required to create the enchanted item - but ONLY if you know ENCHANTMENT? Put another way, a character who has not learned ENCHANTMENT, despite having the spell PURIFY AIR, doesn't have the ability to craft the enchanted item PURIFY AIR. This is why, as GM, it is my belief that magic items are themselves, purely an ENCHANTMENT college spell. The oddity perhaps is that half the time spent enchanting is good for improving your enchantment spell (on the job training) and half the time spent is good for the spell itself.

Originally Posted by munin

Here's what I've got so far:
[LIST][*]IQ 20[*]Magery 3

• Magery 3 is the suggested maximum for "classic fantasy" (B66). You could also argue for Magery 4 as that's the standard maximum for Talents.

This is not your typical mage by any means. IQ 20 is not supposed to be even a normal human being either, but a LEGENDARY being, the likes ow which the universe shall never see again. Add in Magery 3 (or 4 - which breaks the original fantasy rules of magery never being higher than 3) - coupled with a legendary IQ, would be even more unusual (statistically speaking.

This is known as Min/Max character building - nothing wrong with BUILDING such a character, but presuming that character then builds all of the spells with a prerequisite chain that is absurdly high is problemamatical.

What we're talking about is what is required for a pre-history of NPCs who pre-existed before the player character. These are in theory, more normal individuals.

Originally Posted by munin

[*]Thaumatology at IQ+10 (including Magery … of any amount)

• Again, there's really no limit to skills. Skills above Attribute+10 optionally require daily maintenance (B294), but they are still possible. Anthing else is a setting decision.

[*]prototype spell skill at IQ+0 for Very Hard spells (including Magery 3)[*]+1 or +2 … If the player’s description is especially clear or clever (B473)[*]+4 from assistants with skill 20+ (prototype roll only)[*]+4 or more for additional energy (prototype roll only, M12)

• This is … not very well defined in how it applies to spell invention. Theoretically, if you're trying to prototype a spell with a cost of 1 energy, you could get a bonus of +103 using 100 unskilled spectators.

[*]+2 or more for complementary skills

• I see complementary skills as different than assistants. Assistants spent a point on the concept skill just like you did, and they're right there with you doing calculations, solving problems, etc. An example of a complementary skill is you realize you need 57 light sources but you're not sure how to arrange them, and then you realize the problem is similar to faceting a gem, so you ask someone else to make a complemetary roll against Jeweler. If they succeed, they've made your job easier (you get a bonus to skill). GURPS Social Engineering has the most complete treatment of complementary skills (p. 21), I believe.

A lot of density of concepts here, but many of them are outside the scope of the original rules for spell inventions (ie, some concepts occur after GURPS MAGIC was published).

The problem with Assistants is this: They have to have a skill 20+ in the thaumatology skill. If their skill is higher than yours, they will be the ones leading the research, not you. Getting their skills to 20+ means that per descriptions published AFTER the original GURPS MAGIC, GURPS CAMPAIGNS, and GURPS CHARACTERS - pretty much violate the norms of ordinary people. Even before GURPS TEMPLATES came out, the labels affixed to skill levels were:

SKill 12 to 13: Professional
Skill 14 to 15: Well trained
SKill 16 to 19: Expert
Skill 20+: Master

Now for the issue of Extra Energy for skill: Before you can utilize any other assistant in casting a ceremonial cast spell, you have to have a skill of 15+ to co-ordinate the ceremonial spell casting. That will result in a LOT of mages who will not be able to utilize the ceremonial spell casting. Even if by some miracle, the mage's skill is 15 with the attempt to create the prototype, no other person who knows the spell actually exists - it is after all, in the process of being invented. At BEST, the mage can utilize spectators...

Double dipping: creating a well thought out explanation for the spell and having someone who does the same thing for you as a complementary skill, look to be doing the same thing - clarifying things sufficiently to make life easier. A +1 bonus is gained with a normal success on the complementary skill, or a +2 bonus with a crit success. But now we're entering "subjective terrority" requiring a GM intervention. No two GMs are likely to rule the same (then again, does this even matter?).

Double Dipping: +5 bonus for adapting something from what you already know.

If you don't know any spells in a college, you're penalized by a -5

After you know at least one spell in the college, that disappears. Why? Do all subsequent spells gain what amounts to a +5 bonus for similiarity?

Now for the really FUN part...

Create a single non-player character on points equal to say, 75 (half that of a standard fantasy player character). Now build your researcher and see what if anything, they can research per the actual existing spells.

What? That's not fair? Ok, let's really have some fun...

Build a 70 point character and denote said character as being aged 15, giving said individual ZERO spells.

Use the Time/USE worksheet to age the character year by year by year - gaining spells from a teacher. Few teachers teach things for free, so keep a running cost of money owed to the teacher over time. Keep tabs on how the character pays for cost of living per month (and how said character gained it). Age your NPC until he is ready to actively become a spell researcher. now have him research a relatively simple spell whose prerequisite count is 13.

List ONLY those things used from GURPS CAMPAIGNS, GURPS CHARACTERS, and GURPS MAGIC. Follow the rules as given - and track all expenses incurred during research.

for purposes of the "thought experiment" - we'll igore the rule about having to have a character point to learn the spell - we'll just assume that these character points are building up over time and not used just so that this NPC can spend them strictly only for spells being researched.

Oh, don't forget to charge the market price for potions used, or the magic items used as expenses.

Wait, you didn't include the patron advantage so that this guy has access to what ever he needs in the way of money for the goods being purchased? Did you include the cost of an Ally group who can reliably grant 1 energy point per spectator in the ally group for ceremonial casting?

We're no longer talking about a character worth 70 points, or 150 points or at a guess, even 200 points. We're starting to reach straospheric level character points now.

The day in the life of the spell inventor was intended to get people thinking about the rules as they were originally written (RAW) and see if the rules made sense in 2004 (or was it 2005?). If the conclusion is no - then so be it. That it wasn't caught in playtest is vexing. That it has taken as long as 17 to 18 years to be caught? That just tells me NO one has been involved in using said rules for their campaign.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by hal

.
The day in the life of the spell inventor was intended to get people thinking about the rules as they were originally written (RAW) and see if the rules made sense in 2004 (or was it 2005?). If the conclusion is no - then so be it. That it wasn't caught in playtest is vexing. That it has taken as long as 17 to 18 years to be caught? That just tells me NO one has been involved in using said rules for their campaign.

I dont even use the standard magic system, I use RPM, Realms, Incantation, Verb Noun and others types of versatile magic and with heavy modifications... I basically use Thaumatology as my guide, not Magic, so yeah, include me on that one