GURPS MAGIC: Day in the life of a spell inventor...

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by hal

Because spell research is ritual magic, you can't use time use rules.

Oh yes that's true, I forgot about that.

That however only applies to the "prototype". Not the Concept phase.

[hal]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Oh yes that's true, I forgot about that.

That however only applies to the "prototype". Not the Concept phase.

If you can find your cite to support that, I'm all ears (or eyes in the case of the internet). ;)

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by hal

If you can find your cite to support that, I'm all ears (or eyes in the case of the internet). ;)

Grrrr you're making me constantly go back and forth into all rules from the books... Worse part is, I dont even use standard magic, I only use synthatic magic lol. So I never did more than give it a curious look at. Let me check it out

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by hal

If you can find your cite to support that, I'm all ears (or eyes in the case of the internet). ;)

Here it goes:

Originally Posted by Gurps Magic p.14

(...)The Concept roll is made against Thaumatology, instead of a Complexity modifier; subtract the prerequisite count for the new spell (p. 6). Apply a -5 penalty for any spell in a college in which the researcher knows no spells. Apply a -5 penalty in a low-mana zone. Once the Concept phase has produced a viable incantation, the researcher (or an assistant) must invest a character point in learning the newspell. At that point, a prototype may be developed. A magical workshop is required(...)
(...)The Prototype roll is a roll against the new spell itself, cast ceremonially (this can be done alone; the process is similar to enchantment). The normal Prototype bonuses for qualified assistants apply, though the ceremonial magic penalties for assistants typically
offset them. Apply any modifiers from the Concept stage that apply. A critical failure on the Prototype roll is like any other critical failure on a spell; roll on the Critical Spell Failure table (p. 7). Each attempt takes a full day.

So, this makes it clear that the Concept roll is NOT a cerimonial casting. And neither could it be, and it would be weird if it were, since you are NOT casting a spell, you're just designing an idea for it, and it aint even a spell-skill that you roll, but Thaumatology.

The Prototype however IS indeed a spell casting, which by the boldened part makes it crystal clear that yes, you do need to spend 1CP to buy the spell-skill in order to be able to use it during the prototype phase.

So yes, you could take 1 month to create the Concept for a +5 bonus, just not for the Prototype phase.

[Aldric]

Has anyone given any thought to the effect, if any, of Gadgeteering on spell development?
It greatly reduces the Complexity penalties for other Inventions, but spells have their own modifiers, and I couldn't find anything regardin it.
It could probably halve the modifier as it does for software, or something like that (or have no effect of course)

[hal]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Here it goes:



So, this makes it clear that the Concept roll is NOT a cerimonial casting. And neither could it be, and it would be weird if it were, since you are NOT casting a spell, you're just designing an idea for it, and it aint even a spell-skill that you roll, but Thaumatology.

The Prototype however IS indeed a spell casting, which by the boldened part makes it crystal clear that yes, you do need to spend 1CP to buy the spell-skill in order to be able to use it during the prototype phase.

So yes, you could take 1 month to create the Concept for a +5 bonus, just not for the Prototype phase.

I can see where you're thoughts are on this - and it does make sense. One specifically states it is ceremonial spell casting, the other does not. The only thing to bring up is that Thaumatology is itself, dependent upon Magery, but in theory, a non-magery character can have the skill - so that cancels out.

I'm going to cautiously endorse that mindset - that you can use other aspects of the rules for improving conceptualization rolls - just not the prototyping aspect.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Aldric

Has anyone given any thought to the effect, if any, of Gadgeteering on spell development?
It greatly reduces the Complexity penalties for other Inventions, but spells have their own modifiers, and I couldn't find anything regardin it.
It could probably halve the modifier as it does for software, or something like that (or have no effect of course)

I have, but left that as an exercise outside the scope of this investigation. Why, because the offer of permitting it - is given some warning. Specifically:


"The GM may allow mage Gadgeteers to apply Gadgeteering to spell invention. However, such a combination is likely to lead to a number of wild thaumaturgical innovations that not every GM will be happy to handle."

Based upon that, it also requires that the GM permit gadgeteering in as an advantage in the first place. If the GM is happy with that, fine. If not, then that option may not be available for magic research.

Again, people can use it, and it would appear that the rules do permit it. But it also looks like an edge case.

[hal]

In case anyone wonders...

"Why aren't you utilizing assistants"?

The answer is simple actually...

Each assistant requires a skill of 20+ in the skills required.

That means that you will need to have at least give "Masters of Thaumatology" working together in an effort to improve your conceptualization roll.

Remember - we're talking about ordinary individuals who will have to work together to research spells. A beginning "professional level researcher" with a skill of 12 (the very definition of professional level skill) - will be largely incapable of researching ANY spell with a relatively high prerequisite count. Asssitants requiring a skill of 20? Five of them working together to gain a +4 bonus? Wowsa.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by hal

The only thing to bring up is that Thaumatology is itself, dependent upon Magery

No it's not. Magery gives a bonus for Thaumatology, like a Talent, but Thaumatology is in no way dependant on Magery. Thaumatology is just a skill like any other, that would be like saying anyone skill cannot work without a specific Talent.

You dont need Magery to know Thaumatology; you dont even need to know any spells at all. Thaumatology is just the body of theoretical knowledge of Magic. In theory you could have a non-mage scholar that doesnt know a single spell but that is a master (Thaumatology 20+) of the theoretical study of magic.

That would probably be rare - but not impossible.

That's also why the Concept Roll has NOTHING to do with the spell casting properly. The Concept roll is theorizing the application of magical concepts. "If the moon is under Sagitary, or if mercury gets combined with crysantemo, I should have the proper contamination principle for this effect. This means that the intent of the world "Alepho" combined with the classical gesturing of elemental water designed by the western school should in theory form the basis for the incantation, at least for the first part of my problem. Now, for the second part, I should move my left foot to form the basic sacred triangle described by master Xander, 1262, for all motion driven spells... This means that if I combine that motion with the mentalization technique of the Pkis from the East, I should be able to increase the Raladium levels of mystic energy, there is unless... No no no, that wont work, let me try something else... Hmmm... How about the mana fluctuation patterns of the Velvedic flowers of Allering, their progression seems to follow the same math of the fluidic systems of my research..."

It's not spell casting AT ALL.

Originally Posted by hal

but in theory, a non-magery character can have the skill - so that cancels out.

Exactly. Thaumatology is not connected to spell casting at all.

It's like the difference between martial artist and a biophysicist that never threw a punch in his life but that tries to improve martial arts by studying the "science" of it

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by hal

In case anyone wonders...

"Why aren't you utilizing assistants"?

The answer is simple actually...

Each assistant requires a skill of 20+ in the skills required.

That means that you will need to have at least give "Masters of Thaumatology" working together in an effort to improve your conceptualization roll.

Remember - we're talking about ordinary individuals who will have to work together to research spells. A beginning "professional level researcher" with a skill of 12 (the very definition of professional level skill) - will be largely incapable of researching ANY spell with a relatively high prerequisite count. Asssitants requiring a skill of 20? Five of them working together to gain a +4 bonus? Wowsa.

From my understanding of the Invention rules, you can only use assistants for the Prototype, NOT the Concept phase. That's for general inventions, not just magic.

The other problem is that the roll for your Prototype is NOT your Thaumatology, but rather the spell-skill which you just bought off. This means that, since it's a single 1CP, it will be a spell skill at Attribute-2 for a hard spell or Attribute-3 for a very hard one (plus magery). That means that an "assistant" would have to have IQ+Magery at AT LEAST 22 to be able to "assist" on a Hard spell or IQ+Magery 23 to "assist" on a Very Hard one - ie IQ 20, Magery 3 to assist in the Prototype of a VH spell.

Since Magery 3 IQ 20 mages arent just around the corner, that's also why I too completely disregarded any possibility of assistants.