[Fantasy] When not to kill the Orcs

[simply Nathan]

Many of Tolkien's elves were human-sized or taller, so if you're going pre-Tolkien you'd have smaller-than-human elves (but I hate this, as it makes all standard PC races both shorter and longer-lived than humans, whereas I like to think of humans as The Mario).

Likewise, his orcs basically being goblins with gigantism (Uruk-Hai being half-orcs; their mingling with humanity boosted their strength to make them as strong as Men, and nerfed their weaknesses to give them "Dislikes Sunlight" rather than whatever Dread/Nocturnal/whatever they had).

Pre-Tolkien orcs don't exist, really. Pre-Tolkien halflings, either, though gnomes, brownies, leprechauns, satyrs, and so on can all fill that role.

My first experience with orcs is this. "It's a monster. It looks like a pig. It fights like a man with a spear. Kill it on sight; it might be smart enough to run away after being wounded."

[b-dog]

I am on the side of orcs are evil. If you want to have a noble savage then why not just invent another race? "These orcs love puppies and kittens and babies" does not make much sense to me but it is your game and you can do what you want. If you want demons to be the force of good and angels to be sadistic and cruel then more power to you. But this kind of stuff just makes GURPS seem wonkish and contrived. "In my game world ogres love to grow flowers and take care of bunnies" just seems like you are trying too hard to shake things up to make ogres different than what people expect. To me it seems too cheesy.

[Josol]

Question: When do you not kill orcs?
Answer: When they're not trying to kill you.

You can talk to them, ignore them, attack them or hide from them. Just like people at the mall. :)

[BaHalus]

Originally Posted by b-dog

I am on the side of orcs are evil. If you want to have a noble savage then why not just invent another race? "These orcs love puppies and kittens and babies" does not make much sense to me but it is your game and you can do what you want. If you want demons to be the force of good and angels to be sadistic and cruel then more power to you. But this kind of stuff just makes GURPS seem wonkish and contrived. "In my game world ogres love to grow flowers and take care of bunnies" just seems like you are trying too hard to shake things up to make ogres different than what people expect. To me it seems too cheesy.

Ok, don't take it to absurd levels. Nobody is talking about orcs as a force of good or orcs as nature lovers.
Orcs may have the inclination to be bad guys without being the incarnation of evil. Without all orcs being evil and without a raid in a orc village being morally ok. Without genocide being a goal. Without killing them all being the only option.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by BaHalus

Ok, don't take it to absurd levels.

You are obviously not familiar with b-dog's posts.

Personally, I'm on the side of "treat them as people if you want your PCs to treat them as people." But I also agree with Icelander that I think it's more interesting if they are people who are genetically predisposed, by and large, to be likely to eventually end up as murderous raiders preying on any nearby human populations. It adds a lot more nuance than a simple message that we're all the same despite skin color or tusk size.

[LemmingLord]

Having a theme or one or more aesops in a fantasy or science fiction game seems very genre appropriate. Having too many themes going on simultaneously can be difficult to have fun with. Heck, even having one is too much for some hack and slash games..

if you are a gamemaster who likes exploring the status quo like many good fantasy or science fiction works...make it clear to your players if that's going to be the theme.. so players who don't like exploring the status can know ahead of time.

[combatmedic]

I like to grow flowers and take care of bunnies.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by KevinJ

Despite what EGG said, D&D was a total rip off of JRR's work (I have a D&D Basic book with Hobbits instead of Halfling) and nearly all modern fantasy is one branch of another of the same tree.

D&D is an eclectic mish-mash of pulp fantasy, a goodly dose of pulp sci-fi, a lot of mythology, some comic book influences, history filtered through wargaming...and LotR/The Hobbit. It's as much like the Conan stories, or Fafhrd and Grey Mouser, as it is like Lord of the Rings. Yes, D&D 'ripped off' Tolkien- and a gazillion other sources. Aside from several of the races and a few other things, the game is actually pretty light on Tolkien's influence. . The magic system is adapted from the Dying Earth by Jack Vance. Are there a lot of dinosaurs, zombies, magic ray-beams, crashed spaceships, frog cultists, clerics, kung fu monks, etc in Tolkien? Nope. :)


Fantasy existed before Tolkein. Classic swords and sorcercy and weird fiction are not based on LotR. Howard , Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, A E Merrit- none of them are Tolkien imitators.

[LemmingLord]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

I like to grow flowers and take care of bunnies.

speaking of challenging the status quo...

and speaking of Easter...

"bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes..
they've got those hoppy legs and twitchy little noses..
and what's with all those carrots?
What do they need good eyesight for anyway???"

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by BaHalus

Orcs are decayed elves and trolls are decayed ents if I recall correctly Tolkien.

I don't remember reading something about souls of orcs, I am not even sure to have read something about their longevity. But it has been some time since I read Tolkien, and I did't read everything.

And by enforcing evil nature, I meant in games (rpg and pc), not the books. Just mentioned LOTR because it is a popular setting for many RPG that uses this old school orc.

The existence of pure good or pure evil in general is not in my tastes. I can play this kind of game with no problem. But I prefer when things aren't always that straight.

And I really don't thing a game with shades of gray makes orcs useless. They are not defined only by the pure evil thing. You should use lesser demons for that role.

Tolkien never thought the orcs pure evil. If they were pure evil they would have had no courage which would have made them inconvenient as villains.