[Fantasy] When not to kill the Orcs

[KevinJ]

There have been games where the traditional 'bad guy' races have been made into normal races. Dark Sun (2E AD&D), Shadowrun, and Palladium Fantasy come to mind. Who ever the bad guys are, they are the bad guys for their own reasons, not to fulfill a "racial stereotype."

One thing that having the 'orcs' be the bad guys is that you can be humanocentric and not have to have evil humans as the enemies because all humans are good guys. In my world you are more likely to face other Folk as the villains unless you go hunting for Darkfolk or explore a few out of the way places.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Michael Hopcroft

Orcs in most fantasy campaigns exist for only one reason -- to die at the end of the adventurers' swords. They are mainly threatening because they come in vast numbers, and the usual human response to their presence, which most consider reasonable, is to try and exterminate them utterly because that's what they want to do to you.

Players with modern sensibilities are hopefully a little bit uncomfortable with having a situation where genocide is the appropriate response to a problem. Of course, many are not, but we won't go there just yet. My question is whether there are circumstances where exterminating the Orcs is not the way to solve the problem. A reason that it is good or necessary to leave some alive or not to go into their camps and slaughter the children.

Naw, there are no orcish women and children. Orcs are actually a kind of lesser demon. They enter the mortal world through unholy wounds in the earth. The naked orcs climb up from the mud full-grown- ready to kill and be killed.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Of course the funny thing about sticking all that "complexity" in is that it tends to turn into utter amorality with the PCs fighting just for the money and no holds barred. After all, everyone's scum.

Everyone is scum in real life, but that doesn't prevent all sorts of moral memeplexes from coming into existence.

If the PCs are really not capable of at least enough depth to match real life, maybe they are not bright enough to play with.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Everyone is scum in real life, but that doesn't prevent all sorts of moral memeplexes from coming into existence.

If the PCs are really not capable of at least enough depth to match real life, maybe they are not bright enough to play with.

If people wanted real life, that's what they'd be doing instead of roleplaying.

[David Johansen]

Put me firmly in the "Orcs iz people too" camp.

I think the first step in humanizing your orcs is letting them fight smart. In my Rolemaster campaigns there was nothing the players feared more than orcs advancing in a disciplined shield wall.

One part of fighting smart is willingness to negociate. While enjoying the hospitality of an old friend's castle, one party found themselves faced with a regiment of orcs who'd spilled over from a nearby war. The orc commander rode up to the castle under a flag of truce and anounced, "We are regrouping and you are not our enemy. Give us food and any women you aren't using and we will be gone sooner. Refuse and we will take what we need. Fight us and you will be our enemy and we will destroy you."

Now the player characters refused and fought and, in the end, won but they never underestimated the orcs. And once they were driven off they didn't even think about pursueing or hunted them down.

A few general tips:

Give them military targets. If the dungeons are the orcs equivilant of watch towers and fortresses they won't have a lot of women and children in them.

Let the orcs be reasonable sometimes. If they can be talked to, reasoned with, and occasionally resort to non-violent aproaches the players will be less willing to anihilate them out of hand.

Let them have internal divisions. If there are power struggles and divisions among the orcs they become far less a faceless and irredeemable foe. I had a hobgoblin npc befriend a group once, he was playing dumb to gain their trust to use them as catspaws for unseating his chieftain. When he spelled it out to them in small words they were gobsmacked because it never occured to them that dumb as a rock old "Kitten" might be playing a deeper game.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

If people wanted real life, that's what they'd be doing instead of roleplaying.

Really?

As far as I know, most people I roleplay with are not necessarily running away from real life. They are, aside from me, with a law degree, respectively, two doctors, one engineer, one cop and a couple of less educated people who merely qualify as computer scientists or Japanese speakers.

If I even got the feeling that someone was playing RPGs because he was unable to face real life, I'd ask him to do it somewhere else. Social retardation is not my problem and I'm not paid to worry about people who can't hack it in reality.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Really?

As far as I know, most people I roleplay with are not necessarily running away from real life. They are, aside from me, with a law degree, respectively, two doctors, one engineer, one cop and a couple of less educated people who merely qualify as computer scientists or Japanese speakers.

If I even got the feeling that someone was playing RPGs because he was unable to face real life, I'd ask him to do it somewhere else. Social retardation is not my problem and I'm not paid to worry about people who can't hack it in reality.

sorry you total missed the point of escapism.

[KevinJ]

Originally Posted by David Johansen

Put me firmly in the "Orcs iz people too" camp.

I think the first step in humanizing your orcs is letting them fight smart. In my Rolemaster campaigns there was nothing the players feared more than orcs advancing in a disciplined shield wall.

One part of fighting smart is willingness to negociate. While enjoying the hospitality of an old friend's castle, one party found themselves faced with a regiment of orcs who'd spilled over from a nearby war. The orc commander rode up to the castle under a flag of truce and anounced, "We are regrouping and you are not our enemy. Give us food and any women you aren't using and we will be gone sooner. Refuse and we will take what we need. Fight us and you will be our enemy and we will destroy you."

Now the player characters refused and fought and, in the end, won but they never underestimated the orcs. And once they were driven off they didn't even think about pursueing or hunted them down.

A few general tips:

Give them military targets. If the dungeons are the orcs equivilant of watch towers and fortresses they won't have a lot of women and children in them.

Let the orcs be reasonable sometimes. If they can be talked to, reasoned with, and occasionally resort to non-violent aproaches the players will be less willing to anihilate them out of hand.

Let them have internal divisions. If there are power struggles and divisions among the orcs they become far less a faceless and irredeemable foe. I had a hobgoblin npc befriend a group once, he was playing dumb to gain their trust to use them as catspaws for unseating his chieftain. When he spelled it out to them in small words they were gobsmacked because it never occured to them that dumb as a rock old "Kitten" might be playing a deeper game.

So... Your orcs are just ugly humans.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

sorry you total missed the point of escapism.

Is there a point to it?

As far as I know, it's just an excuse not to have to think about any entertainment. The people arguing for escapism are also the people arguing that Spiderman is a valid form of entertainment.

More power to them. Just keep them away from me.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Is there a point to it?

As far as I know, it's just an excuse not to have to think about any entertainment. The people arguing for escapism are also the people arguing that Spiderman is a valid form of entertainment.

More power to them. Just keep them away from me.

The point is having fun. But the why you keep describe it like a mental deficaicy is down right insulting.