NFM character using guns mounted to their body

[Keyboardstalker]

I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but I haven't found anything in the basic set that would give me what I'm looking for.

I'm planning on running a game in a universe where most of the characters would be quadrupeds with the No Fine Manipulators disadvantage, but are still able to use guns with a special harness that allows them to actuate the trigger by biting down. Should I handle this by treating it as a vehicle weapon with a fixed or hardpoint mount, and use the Gunner skill? Or would it be better to just have them use the guns skill as normal for the sake of simplicity? Am I missing something or am i just over complicating this?

[sir_pudding]

It's a fixed mount, B467, and can only shoot in one direction (presumably front).

It should be a new speciality of Guns for small arms.

[Varyon]

I'd probably have it be a new specialty of Guns. The details of aiming might result in two (possibly more) specialties of Guns, however. Is it a truly fixed mount, such that the character has to aim by shifting their body? Or is it something that can track their head movement (possibly meaning it's actually mounted to the head; this might only be an option for low-powered firearms, like pistols and maybe SMG's/PCC's) to shoot at what they are looking at? Those seem like they'd be two different specialties - Guns (Fixed) and Guns (Gaze), with the latter possibly sharing a default with Innate Attack (Gaze) (much as I've suggested in the past a Guns (Wrist) sharing a default with Innate Attack (Projectile)).

At lower TL's (probably up through TL 8 or so), Aiming would require some sort of drop-down sights. If we imagine the weapon simply as a more traditional one mounted upside down, you'd just install a riser of appropriate size to get the actual sights - iron, reflex, scope, whatever - down to eye level (note this means the weapon needs to be long enough for the barrel to project out in front of your face; a back-mounted pistol you aren't going to be able to use the sights for unless you've got some sort of extender that does project out far enough). For Guns (Gaze), at lower TL's you'd probably be restricted to head-mounted if you want to get full Acc out of the weapon, as the sights aren't going to line up when your head is turned (you'll get full Acc - and be able to use the scope - only when you are positioned as though it were a fixed mount). HUD links would avoid this drawback, so for TL 9+, Guns (Gaze) may be the way to go. I'm not sure if a back-mounted weapon would have reduced ST requirements or increased ones, honestly, although I suspect those that track your head movement would have higher ST requirements (recoil would be harder to deal with when firing off-center).

[Keyboardstalker]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I'd probably have it be a new specialty of Guns. The details of aiming might result in two (possibly more) specialties of Guns, however. Is it a truly fixed mount, such that the character has to aim by shifting their body? Or is it something that can track their head movement (possibly meaning it's actually mounted to the head; this might only be an option for low-powered firearms, like pistols and maybe SMG's/PCC's) to shoot at what they are looking at? Those seem like they'd be two different specialties - Guns (Fixed) and Guns (Gaze), with the latter possibly sharing a default with Innate Attack (Gaze) (much as I've suggested in the past a Guns (Wrist) sharing a default with Innate Attack (Projectile)).

At lower TL's (probably up through TL 8 or so), Aiming would require some sort of drop-down sights. If we imagine the weapon simply as a more traditional one mounted upside down, you'd just install a riser of appropriate size to get the actual sights - iron, reflex, scope, whatever - down to eye level (note this means the weapon needs to be long enough for the barrel to project out in front of your face; a back-mounted pistol you aren't going to be able to use the sights for unless you've got some sort of extender that does project out far enough). For Guns (Gaze), at lower TL's you'd probably be restricted to head-mounted if you want to get full Acc out of the weapon, as the sights aren't going to line up when your head is turned (you'll get full Acc - and be able to use the scope - only when you are positioned as though it were a fixed mount). HUD links would avoid this drawback, so for TL 9+, Guns (Gaze) may be the way to go. I'm not sure if a back-mounted weapon would have reduced ST requirements or increased ones, honestly, although I suspect those that track your head movement would have higher ST requirements (recoil would be harder to deal with when firing off-center).

It’s a setting that does have power armor, so maybe the normal ones you’d find most people using could be the fixed mount variant that you have to aim by shifting your body, meanwhile the power armor variant could have head tracking and a HUD link?

Another feature of the setting is they have specially designed pistols that they shoot with their mouths. Again, not the most realistic, but it’s a feature of the setting. I think that could easily just be another specialty for Guns.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Keyboardstalker

. . . quadrupeds with the No Fine Manipulators disadvantage, but are still able to use guns with a special harness that allows them to actuate the trigger by biting down.

Presumably they can rely on having someone around to put the harness on and remove it for them?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Keyboardstalker

It’s a setting that does have power armor, so maybe the normal ones you’d find most people using could be the fixed mount variant that you have to aim by shifting your body, meanwhile the power armor variant could have head tracking and a HUD link?

It actually occurred to me that you don't necessarily need the risers to be able to use the weapon's sights - you could have a sight of some sort (I imagine Reflex/Red Dot would work best) built into the helmet. For normal ones, you might have it setup so the sight signals to you when you're actually in-line with the aimpoint of the weapon; for the ones that track head movement, you may be able to design it so the dot moves appropriately as they move their head back and forth (heck, that should be just as doable for fixed-mount). You'd want that sight to be retractable (particularly if it's a scope), perhaps using your tongue to flip a switch or something (Heinlein had some bits in Starship Troopers where the Mobile Infantry used their mouths in various ways to work some of their gear that might be worthwhile here). Subvocal commands would also work. But, yeah, fixed mounts normally and head-tracking mounts for those in power armor or similar would work.

Originally Posted by Keyboardstalker

Another feature of the setting is they have specially designed pistols that they shoot with their mouths. Again, not the most realistic, but it’s a feature of the setting. I think that could easily just be another specialty for Guns.

I'd probably have it use my suggested Guns (Gaze) skill, as it would track with your head. I'm assuming this is in the form on headgear; if it's something they actually pick up with their mouth and fire using their tongue (firing by biting down harder is going to result in a lot of ND's; tongue-firing may as well, but not as much), that would probably be its own skill... and call for a trip to the dentist.

Originally Posted by johndallman

Presumably they can rely on having someone around to put the harness on and remove it for them?

Depending on TL, the harness may be able to attach itself - just wiggle in and activate it with your voice and it secures itself, ready to go.

[Keyboardstalker]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Presumably they can rely on having someone around to put the harness on and remove it for them?

In the story it’s based off of, that question is usually handwaved away, or attention is simply not called to it, as are others like “how do they reload the guns while they’re in the harness?” I imagine the power armor could have the capability to attach itself. It does make sense to have a rule saying someone else needs to be present to help put on the harness and remove it.

Might also just let them reload the guns as normal while wearing the harness, and reload at a penalty while shooting pistols from the mouth.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Keyboardstalker

In the story it’s based off of, that question is usually handwaved away, or attention is simply not called to it, as are others like “how do they reload the guns while they’re in the harness?” I imagine the power armor could have the capability to attach itself. It does make sense to have a rule saying someone else needs to be present to help put on the harness and remove it.

Might also just let them reload the guns as normal while wearing the harness, and reload at a penalty while shooting pistols from the mouth.

I'm not familiar with the source, but for "How do they reload?" the obvious answer is "They don't." If the harness itself essentially serves as a large magazine - which may work better if the weapons use something more like a consumable belt, so the harness is more like a large pouch, possibly with the belt wrapping around the body a few times - they'll basically carry all of their ammunition in a readily-accessible form with no need to swap magazines. Belt-fed small arms don't make much sense for humanoids because we can readily swap out handy magazines, and also the ways we need to move the weapon around is going to cause issues if it's attached to us by the ammo belt. For a stationary weapon mounted on someone - like the shoulder guns you sometimes see on powered armor, or the harnessed weapons of your (I assume) quadrupeds, such a setup should actually work and make sense.

If that fails, you could probably have something like a carousel of magazines and a loading arm that pulls out the old, stows it in its slot, then rotates to the next slot and pulls out a new one, then slaps that in. Or maybe you can set it up with two such arms, with one removing the old and stowing it while the other retrieves the new and inserts it, speeding up reloading time. The user would need to give it a "reload" command through whatever means (or maybe it just automatically does it when the magazine runs dry), but doesn't need to actually do anything and can act normally (Move, Aim, make attacks with other weapons - including claws and teeth - etc) while it's reloading.

Pistols held in the mouth seem too stupid for me to figure out a way to make them work, I'm afraid. One mounted to the face, however, could probably use the same sort of belt-feed or magazine carousel as above.

[Keyboardstalker]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I'm not familiar with the source, but for "How do they reload?" the obvious answer is "They don't." If the harness itself essentially serves as a large magazine - which may work better if the weapons use something more like a consumable belt, so the harness is more like a large pouch, possibly with the belt wrapping around the body a few times - they'll basically carry all of their ammunition in a readily-accessible form with no need to swap magazines. Belt-fed small arms don't make much sense for humanoids because we can readily swap out handy magazines, and also the ways we need to move the weapon around is going to cause issues if it's attached to us by the ammo belt. For a stationary weapon mounted on someone - like the shoulder guns you sometimes see on powered armor, or the harnessed weapons of your (I assume) quadrupeds, such a setup should actually work and make sense.

If that fails, you could probably have something like a carousel of magazines and a loading arm that pulls out the old, stows it in its slot, then rotates to the next slot and pulls out a new one, then slaps that in. Or maybe you can set it up with two such arms, with one removing the old and stowing it while the other retrieves the new and inserts it, speeding up reloading time. The user would need to give it a "reload" command through whatever means (or maybe it just automatically does it when the magazine runs dry), but doesn't need to actually do anything and can act normally (Move, Aim, make attacks with other weapons - including claws and teeth - etc) while it's reloading.

I like both of these options. Maybe there could be multiple variants. One could be the far more reliable and common belt fed one, and the other could be a more expensive magazine carousel option. Maybe it’s one that you kick back a lever and the mechanism ejects the magazine and rotates in the next one. And so with those, you’d make a reload maneuver as normal, and with the belt feds you’d have to have a separate person reload you when it runs dry like a SAW.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Pistols held in the mouth seem too stupid for me to figure out a way to make them work, I'm afraid. One mounted to the face, however, could probably use the same sort of belt-feed or magazine carousel as above.

Yeah, I agree that that’s pretty stupid and unrealistic. I didn’t make up the universe this takes place in, and in the stories it comes from it’s a pretty common occurrence. Might just be one of those things I’ll have to ignore.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Keyboardstalker

I like both of these options. Maybe there could be multiple variants. One could be the far more reliable and common belt fed one, and the other could be a more expensive magazine carousel option. Maybe it’s one that you kick back a lever and the mechanism ejects the magazine and rotates in the next one. And so with those, you’d make a reload maneuver as normal, and with the belt feds you’d have to have a separate person reload you when it runs dry like a SAW.

For the belt-fed, if it wraps around the body, it will need a winding mechanism of some sort - either internal and powered by a rechargeable battery, or external with a detachable or folding winch the reloader can use. Basically, you feed one end of the belt into where the ammo usually exits, then the winding mechanism pulls that and the rest through, wrapping it back up as it was before; then you load up the weapon with the first round, and it's ready to fire again. Slower than reloading a traditional belt-fed, but that's part of the cost of it working. For the carousel (which I'll note is inspired by a tank autoloader) you can just replace empty magazines with full ones, so it may be quicker to reload there... although the fact you have to replace multiple magazines may make it actually slower than the belt-fed.

Originally Posted by Keyboardstalker

Yeah, I agree that that’s pretty stupid and unrealistic. I didn’t make up the universe this takes place in, and in the stories it comes from it’s a pretty common occurrence. Might just be one of those things I’ll have to ignore.

Sounds like something good to leave out. How do they even carry those things when they aren't in use? A chest holster, maybe, but that seems like it would get in the way of running. If the character wants to be able to be armed without looking like they're ready for war, I'd imagine the quadrupeds make heavy use of harnesses in civilian life anyway (for carrying things around), so a modified harness that can conceal something akin to a pistol should be doable without raising suspicion; might need to use a wireless method of signaling it to fire, however, so it can be concealed in your mouth without a suspicious line/wire/whatever feeding to your harness where the weapon is hidden. Or maybe it's setup with the "trigger" on a flexible wire mounted where you can duck your head down and grab it with your teeth - head down, grab, and pull up and the concealing compartment falls away, revealing your weapon (this is the equivalent of a human drawing from a concealed holster), then you can bite down on the trigger if the aggressor doesn't back down to shoot them. Letting go has the trigger snap back to its resting position and the concealing compartment closing back up (equivalent to a human holstering their weapon).