Additional modifiers for extreme cold?

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Anders

*obligatory metric-system-is-better screed*

In temperature, there's little need to convert anything, so it doesn't have any benefit from power of 10 conversion. The difference is pretty much entirely familiarity. You could even make a case that Fahrenheit is better suited to environmental temperatures, where less than 0 or more than 100 are dangerous extremes.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

If he's army or navy, but might he have an American-style leather "bomber jacket" if he's air force? And if he's in the American military, most of this won't apply, but I couldn't say for certain what would, beyond woolen underwear and socks still being likely.

The US copied, in a modified form, the British blouse, so that's be wool (and did have ties). When properly ironed, etc. their uniform looked smarter than the British battledress, which was modeled on skiing sportswear, so was loose to enable easy movement, fitted with pockets that were designed to lie as flat as possible to not snag on things (including bits of vehicles), and which put utility ahead of appearance.

In WWII the British used for BD most situations that weren't dressy enough to require 'service dress' or some kind of dress uniform, aside from maintenance work for which they had an over-sized version of battledress made of denim (and intended to be worn over normal BD). In hot climates the uniform was of cotton, with shorts and a short rather than a 'blouse', and other differences, but it was based on the same design.

This battledress was widely copied, so they must've done something right.

[Inky]

I'm not sure about any of the following.

Whatever kind of gallon you use, Create Water 40 would produce 10 lbs x 40 x 40 = 16,000 lbs of water, which isn't actually as much as it sounds, it would all fit into a two-metre cube - so you couldn't cover all that large an area at once this way, for instance it would cover an area around 9 metres square 10 centimetres deep, or an area 4 metres square 50 centimetres deep.

(On the other hand, as Curmudgeon says, if the superhuman is able to drop the entire 16,000 lbs from a height on a small group of soldiers, they might be killed just by the weight - you'd think that wouldn't happen, but people can break bones falling from a height into water. You might have to buy that as an Alternate Ability).

"Thermal Shock" specifically says "sudden immersion", and it's talking about rolling once every minute while you're immersed in water, whereas with this they'd be immersed (as opposed to just wet) for very much less than a minute. As Rupert says, if you did allow it, it would only be that once, but after that it would just be ordinary standing-in-a-cold-place-in-wet-clothes, so roll after a minute and then roll every 15 minutes after that.

It seems like the Cold rules leave a bit to be desired in this case, though - if that's the only effect the water has, then it would be 15 minutes before anything happens at all, and they wouldn't be at any penalties until they got down to 1/3 FP, which could take a lot longer.

I'd be inclined to say that having icy water thrown over you should also inflict a sizeable shock penalty even if it doesn't actually inflict any damage. Maybe even a Fright Check the first time (indicating seconds lost working out what had just happened and which way up they were, rather than fright) if they're not expecting this.

Also an increased Malf on their weapons until they can dry them out - I'm not sure exactly how much guns and ammunition would be affected by having water thrown over them (maybe somebody here knows) but it doesn't seem like it would be a good idea.

If you've just dumped eight cubic metres of water over a smallish area of ground on which people are running and fighting, that ground might also become Bad Footing before too many turns are over.

It looks like this would have tremendous nuisance value but would be more use as defence than offence, unless the idea was that other soldiers would be waiting to pick them off - if there was some place that needed to be protected, this would be useful in preventing the enemy from attacking properly and possibly forcing them to retreat to get dry before hypothermia became an issue, but it'd be unlikely to kill anyone - unless he could do what Curmudgeon suggested.

[DeadParrot]

To see the effects of water drops, study wildfire water drops from choppers. If it has time to spread due to distance of fall, probably not going to be fatal but injuries would be likely. If the soldier has no warning about the impending drenching, possible equipment might be damaged. Unprotected radios and bags of powder for large artillery for two examples.

Since 'Polar Plunges' are regularly survived by the participants, I doubt the drenching itself would cause much issue. Long term effects will depend on the local weather.

A large surprise water drop of any temp would be a good way to take out a command tent and the related maps and intelligence info plus injure leadership. Or take out the mess facility just before meal time.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Inky

(On the other hand, as Curmudgeon says, if the superhuman is able to drop the entire 16,000 lbs from a height on a small group of soldiers, they might be killed just by the weight - you'd think that wouldn't happen, but people can break bones falling from a height into water. You might have to buy that as an Alternate Ability).

Water doesn't compress well, so if the relative velocity is too high for the water molecules to get out of the way, it functions very similarly to a solid surface. xkcd did an interesting What If? about all the precipitation from a storm falling as a single drop; from its starting position 2 km above the ground the giant drop builds up to around half the speed of sound before hitting the ground. Of course, that was about 600 million tons, as opposed to the mere 8 tons of our ubersoldat, so the single droplet involved here is going to have a lower terminal velocity and also be more susceptible to dispersal by air resistance (and the dispersed bits are going to decelerate fairly rapidly to fall at the same sort of velocity rain normally falls at, somewhere around Move 10). There's probably a sweet-spot height to maximize both the velocity and the size of the remaining drop (to maximize the amount of damage it will cause on impact), but I don't know enough of the physics to calculate it or determine if it would be enough to cause significant damage. However, if the character can create water at the ambient temperature - in which case it will be ice - that simplifies matters, since now it's just a falling solid object. A 500 yard drop (dropping it on top of oneself) would result in a velocity of around 100 yards per second; that's right around maximum human terminal velocity (for a dive), and I would expect an 8 ton chunk of ice to have a higher terminal velocity than a human (they're close to the same density, but the ice is a lot heavier), so that's probably acceptable. Ignoring the multiplier for homogenous (I hate the fact a human-weight ballistic dummy does 4x as much damage as an unconscious human in a collision), 16,000 lb would have around 50 HP, and thus this would deal an impressive 50d cr (with the multiplier for homogenous, this becomes 200d cr). If instead dropping it at a 45-degree angle from the character's position - that is, around 350 yards out and 350 yards up - that gets reduced to a still-respectable 86 or so yards per second, for 43d cr (or 172d cr with the homogenous multiplier). You'll probably only hit one person (if any) with such, however - such a sphere of ice would only have a radius a bit north of 2 yards, and with 8 seconds to react people will probably scatter before it lands. You might be able to justify treating it as though it were an explosive; 16,000 lb at 100 yards per second produces a bit north of 30 MJ of energy, equivalent to around 14.5 lb of TNT, which in turn deals around 45d cr ex; that will cause minor wounds (1 HP) out to 50 or so yards, major wounds (6+ HP) out to around 9 yards, and potentially-fatal wounds (20+ HP) out to around 3 yards. I'd also be inclined to toss in a "free" [1d] fragmentation effect from ice shards and similar (akin to the incidental fragmentation of an explosion in a heap of scrap metal). There's probably a way to purposefully design it to fragment - say, a shell of ice around a sphere of water - but I don't think default Create allows for that sort of control.

[Pursuivant]

The original rules for Immersion Shock back in GURPS 3E were specifically designed for people who plunged into sub-freezing to near freezing water (~-1* C to 1-2* C).

It's your choice as to how cold your super-nazi's water is when it's created, but if it starts off a room temperature it isn't going to have enough time to cool significantly on its way down if it's created 500 yards in the air. If anything, c. 20 *C water created in -10 *C temperatures would briefly warm anyone it hits before becoming cold and making the squaddies' lives even more miserable.

As for collision damage, consider that each soldier will only be hit by the weight of the water directly above them (i.e., no more than 1 hex) and it won't all hit at once. Effectively, it's a "soft" object even if physically it's not. That means a column of water which is nominally ~20 cf/0.5 m3 with a mass of 500 kg (~1100 lbs.) might actually only hit as if it was a soft 50 or 100 lb. object or possibly even lighter. That damage might also take the form of Knockback, at least in part. Probably capable of killing small animals or injuring people, but but not as lethal as if it was a solid chunk of ice.

At the risk of threadjacking, there was a relatively recent thread on a similar topic here.

I proposed a bunch of rules to make exposure to Cold more of a hazard if combined with high winds or if you're immersed in water. Not RAW, but they might help when combined with the other good suggestions on this thread.

As to gear the victims are wearing, I'd imagine that any well-equipped soldier fighting in temperatures where it could get cold would be dressed in layers of water-resistant material. Overcoat, 2+ wool shirts & layers of trousers, thermal underwear, etc., wool cap, 2+ layers of socks worn under boots, insulated leather gloves, possibly with mittens worn over them.

Thick tight-woven wool is fairly water resistant, so it will take a bit of time for the water to soak in. Call it 2-3 minutes. Once victims are good and wet, wool and similar materials retain about 80% of their original insulation value when wet. Considering that the victims are likely to be very physically active, they're not going to freeze to death any time soon. Say that being soaking wet in wool reduces the bonus that Winter Clothing provides vs. Cold to just +1. (Things would be different if they were all dressed in a single layer of cotton fabric. Cotton, etc. don't insulate that well when wet, so any bonus they'd normally give vs. Cold would turn into a -1 penalty once they're soaked, or even higher if there's a high wind to quickly wick away the moisture & cool them further)

Of course, operationally, your super-nazi's water attacks could be a serious problem. Reducing a bonus of +2 for cold weather gear to +1 might mean 5-10% more casualties due to cold from frostbite, trench foot and hypothermia as well as decreased equipment reliability. Repeated attacks over time could turn a routine troop movement into a disaster.

[Bathawk]

Just checked in the other night, and was pleasantly surprised about how much attention this thread was getting

FYI this character was drawn froman RPG called "godlike" particuarly the book-lengeth adventure "Black Devil's Brigade"

I loved the godlike universe as unlike other superhero RPGs, superhumans (called "Talents") are rare but not as much as typical superheroes...maybe one in 5000. As a result all sides in WWII are able to field hundreds of super-soldiers. most Talents have simple one-shot abilities, and while some major Talents are super powerful, most can be built with 25-50 points in a single ability, for example: Clinging (only while running at full speed -30%, unreliable on a 14 or less -10% (15pts.), or the penetrating vision that can only see guns....but also psychically announces presence to all other talents within 100 yards, or the ability to exoteleport all of a target person's clothes to your hand within 500 yards (I don't care if you still have your gun, a lot of soldiers are subject to fright checks if they are suddenly buck naked on a battlefield)

On one hand godlike is ridiculously unforgiving and graphic as far as the physical and psychological effects of damage so it's about as gritty as it can get

ON the other hand, there is no genetic or magical or spiritual component to powers...no one knows how or why they exist...it just seems that their willpower is so great they force the impossible to happen....this means that despite all the grittiness, a lot of powers seem nonsensical or silly

So our super-nazi is part of a small group or ubersoldaten that while valuble isn't excactly indispensible and groups like his are freely attached to various platoons during the war....this water character (code named "Deluge") can only create 1000pounds of water (create 10)...and in that game mainly uses it to directly drench one opponent at a time, or spends his time "glassing" mountainsides near camp to make allies approaches more dangerous in the wintertime)

I'm trying to pump up Deluge to 500pt. GURPS standard by seeing how much more dangerous he can be by increasing his create to level 40

Incidentally, assuming he's on an elevated position, how much create would be needed to cause a mini-flood?...if allied soldier are climbing a narrow icy path and a sudden rush of water say...1 foot deep came rushing down the path, what would the effects be? and how much create would be needed?

Also since we are talking logistics and winter wear of WWII troops. Does anyone know what the supply chain for the Afrika Corps was? In other words would it have been foolish to deploy this character in the mountains of Monte Cassino instead of creating potable water in the desert? Or were they "all good" without him?

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Bathawk

Does anyone know what the supply chain for the Afrika Corps was?

Scant and unreliable. Supplies were the Afrika Corps' biggest problem. All the supplies came by ship from Italy. The British were very unsporting about sinking them, and since the Axis never got organised to capture Malta, there were always aircraft and submarines based there to attack the convoys.

Originally Posted by Bathawk

In other words would it have been foolish to deploy this character in the mountains of Monte Cassino instead of creating potable water in the desert? Or were they "all good" without him?

The North African campaign started in June 1940, when Italy joined WWII, and lasted until May 1943, when the remaining German and Italian troops in Tunisia were forced to surrender. If Deluge was available during that period, having him create water would be a really good use of his powers. Evacuating him when it became clear that Tunisia could not be held would have been possible, although not risk-free.

The Battle of Monte Cassino started in mid-January 1944, well after the end of the North African campaign. It's very implausible that the Allies would invade Italy without clearing North Africa, so there was never a choice between sending Deluge to North Africa or Monte Cassino. They did not happen simultaneously.

[Bathawk]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Scant and unreliable. Supplies were the Afrika Corps' biggest problem. All the supplies came by ship from Italy. The British were very unsporting about sinking them, and since the Axis never got organised to capture Malta, there were always aircraft and submarines based there to attack the convoys.


The North African campaign started in June 1940, when Italy joined WWII, and lasted until May 1943, when the remaining German and Italian troops in Tunisia were forced to surrender. If Deluge was available during that period, having him create water would be a really good use of his powers. Evacuating him when it became clear that Tunisia could not be held would have been possible, although not risk-free.

The Battle of Monte Cassino started in mid-January 1944, well after the end of the North African campaign. It's very implausible that the Allies would invade Italy without clearing North Africa, so there was never a choice between sending Deluge to North Africa or Monte Cassino. They did not happen simultaneously.

Thank you very much, While I like documentaries and the like there is just so much on WWII a lot of it I'm pretty ignorant on

So it would be logical that he would be deployed to Africa if at all possible, and when the allies came knocking deploying him as a "hypothermia machine" in the mountains to use what is on paper a fairly lackluster ability?

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Bathawk

So it would be logical that he would be deployed to Africa if at all possible

Yes. When the Germans were pushed back into Tunisia, which is less of a desert than Libya, he might have been sent to Stalingrad. A good water supply would be valuable in urban fighting, where you have a lot of troops close together, and the city water system is likely to be damaged. He'd be pulled out once Stalingrad was surrounded by the Soviets, because he's just useful.

Originally Posted by Bathawk

and when the allies came knocking deploying him as a "hypothermia machine" in the mountains to use what is on paper a fairly lackluster ability?

If he's on the front lines, under Godlike, he'd be as much a counter to Allied Talents as a flood/hypothermia attacker. He might well be fighting at Monte Cassino simply because he was there to assist with the water supply.