How would magic interact with late TL5 naval warfare? & Campaign idea

[seasalt]

Originally Posted by martinl

I don't know if necromancy in on theme here, but there was a bunch of cheezy weapon design back in GURPS 3e where tools to build power plants that ran on necromantic sacrifices were combined with custom weapon rules and enchantment to make stuff like the infamous laser rifle powered by belt-fed hamsters that ejected zombified hamsters like shell casings.

You could certainly power boilers with necromantic sacrifice, and ship cannons that loaded in humans and fired their screaming life-hating spectral souls at the enemy are not an unreasonable development of the baseline GURPS magitek baseline.

Don't pass on the classic evil DM scenario of having your PCs capture a critical artillery emplacement that could destroy the enemy if turned on them, but unfortunately it is using the former inhabitants of the local orphanage as ammo.

Necromantic sacrifice-powered boilers sounds pretty sick. That's the kind of thing that can be a great in-game motivation for the characters, too. That could be a good sort of side-event. The players are surprised by being hailed by an unknown warship of strange, macabre design which seems to be crewed by undead thralls. It turns out to be a reclusive necromancer-lord who is offering to join them in battle with a vessel he refitted into an auxiliary cruiser, in exchange for recognizing his claim to the island he rules. This seems like a great windfall for the players. But if they ask to be shown the interior of his warship, they find out the horrible power source it uses to achieve its incredible speed and firepower.

Anyway, I came up with a more specific unit list for things that straddle the edge of TL5 and TL6. Most of them are derived from TL6 units with the base troop strength divided in half.

Capital ship subtypes

Benchmark for a 'poor' capital ship: Warrior-class ironclad (first-generation broadside ironclad)
Benchmark for a 'basic' capital ship: Minotaur-class ironclad (advanced wooden broadside ironclad)
Benchmark for a 'good' capital ship: "Devastation" class battleship (mastless with turrets) or Redoubtable (steel hull).
Benchmark for a 'fine' capital ship: "Royal soverign" class battleship (steel with turreted centerline mounts)
Benchmark for a 'very fine' capital ship: "Majestic" class battleship (mature pre-dreadnought design)

Ironclad: 20,000 TS, class: Nav, Arm, Art, T6
Torpedo boat destroyer: 500 TS, class; Nav, Art, (Cav), T2
Torpedo boat: 50 TS, class: (Nav), Cav [Note: All torpedo boats with self-propelled torpedoes will be at least "fine" unless very poorly made, in which case they are 'good'. Regular and poor torpedo boats use spar torpdoes.]
Gunboat: 120 TS, class: (Nav), Art, (Cav), T2 [Note: Gunboats may carry torpedoes for +25% raise/maintain cost and gain Cav instead of (Cav). Gunboats with self-ppropelled torpedoes will be at least 'Fine'.]
Armored cruiser: 10,000 TS, class: Nav, Arm, Art, Rec, T6
Protected cruiser: 12,000 TS, class: Nav, Art, Rec, T6 [cruisers may carry torpedoes, but lack the ability to get close before firing them like small ships, so they do not have the "cavalry" class]
Armed merchant cruiser: 500 TS, class: Nav, T40
Auxiliary cruiser: 2000 TS, class: Nav, Art, Rec
Cavalry cruiser: 600 TS, class; Nav, T16* [May carry air units; ship must be at least as high quality. Divide transport cap by 2 if 1 step lower quality, by 4 if 2 steps lower, or by 8 if 3 steps lower]
Grand cavalry cruiser: 900 TS, class; Nav, Art, T48
Sea monster: 40, Nav, T1 [Note: can only carry aquatic infantry]
Aquatic warriors: TS 20, Nav, WT 1
Leviathan: TS 500, Nav, T10

[Note: Due to primitive training methods and tactics, there are currently no modern warships in the world with "elite" troop quality, and ships with "good" troop quality are exceedingly rare, limited to a few veterans of combat. The majority of warships have "inferior" troop quality, even in 'professional' navies, at least in most nations. Naval elements require a combination of new training methods, tactics, drills, and combat experience to reach "elite" quality.]
[Note #2: Mages are NOT factored into troop quality of the elements they accompany. Mages, singular or in groups are their own elements, see below]
[Note #2: The 'flagship' rule is not used. A flagship does not get C3I just for being the flagship. Communication is primitive and either relies on magic, or signaling with flags. A "flagship" may have command sections on board which apply to naval battles. Usually each capital ship will carry a command section, and the flagship will carry 4 or 5, allowing the TS of the C3I command sections to stay above 1% of total fleet TS so their class superiority bonus can apply to battles).

Aerial cavalry types
Pegasus-riders: 16 TS, Air, WT 2
Gryphon bombardiers:(38) TS, Air, Cav, WT 8
War dragons: (75) TS, Air, WT 8 [super soldiers]
Hunter flocks: (25) TS, (Air), WT 4


Land elements
Rifle infantry: 20 TS, F, Rec
Mounted rifles: 10 TS, F, Rec, Cav [May not be marines. Unicorn etc. are super-soldiers]
Artillery gun: (150) Ts, Art, WT 4 [May not be marines]
Command section: (50) TS, C3I [without mages, will usually be 'poor', never better than 'basic']
Anti-monster gun: (50) TS, (Arm), WT 2
Anti-air artillery: 20 TS, (Air), F, WT 4
Machine gun: (50) TS, F, WT 1 [Hand-cranked gatling guns or mitreilleuses are 'basic'. Mechanical MGs are usually 'Fine' or 'Very fine' unless shoddily built]
Mortar: (25) TS, Art, WT 1
Battle mage: TS 10, abilities depending on type, often (Art), (Arm), Arm, (Fire), Recon, or C3I [Always "Hero" element. A full squad of mages would have TS 100 at least but hasn't been fielded in a long time]
Ogre soldiers: 62 TS, Arm, WT 6 [May not be marines]
Ogre sailors: 32 TS, Wt 4 [Non transport warships may carry one squad without counting against their troop capacity.
Mobilized sailors: 2 TS, F, Rec [May be drawn from any warship crew - reduce the warship's TS by 500% of the TS of the sailors taken (i.e. -10 TS for every 2 TS mobilized. Sailors with modern pistols will be "Fine" or "Very Fine". If they have rifles, treat as green rifle infantry instead)
Armored giant monster: TS 100, Arm, WT 10 ['Basic' or better will have mounted guns. 'Fine' has mounted machine guns. 'Very fine' may have a mounted cannon.]
Obsolete cannons: TS (20), Art, WT 2 [can never be better than "good", usually "poor"]


......



My reasoning is that, with ships, the ability to get close and launch torpedoes can be handled with the "cavalry" unit class.So there's a dynamic where capital ships provide the bulk of the troop strength and the gap is difficult to make up with escorts and small ships, but escorts and small ships can threaten the capital ships with the new torpedo technology. Even if the new torpedoes kind of suck and only work properly some of the time, those cheap torpedo boats only need to get lucky once.

[DemiBenson]

I wrote an article in Pyramid 3/04 Magic on the Battlefield specifically about magic and naval warfare. While it was aimed at TL2/3/4, many of the concepts and advice would still apply. Obviously, you’d use the “low fantasy” style pointers.

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by martinl

I don't know if necromancy in on theme here, but there was a bunch of cheezy weapon design back in GURPS 3e where tools to build power plants that ran on necromantic sacrifices were combined with custom weapon rules and enchantment to make stuff like the infamous laser rifle powered by belt-fed hamsters that ejected zombified hamsters like shell casings.

You could certainly power boilers with necromantic sacrifice, and ship cannons that loaded in humans and fired their screaming life-hating spectral souls at the enemy are not an unreasonable development of the baseline GURPS magitek baseline.

No reason why not. Necromancy isn't the huge naval game changer at TL 5 than it'd be at earlier TLs, but even so. Certainly its overwhelming utility at low tech would mitigate against naval officers having a problem with it at TL 5.

I may also be having senior moments, but has anyone mentioned the numerous potential benefits of Essential Fuel? Of using (say) Golems as a warship's Black Gang? Essential Metal on a steam ram?

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

No reason why not. Necromancy isn't the huge naval game changer at TL 5 than it'd be at earlier TLs, but even so. Certainly its overwhelming utility at low tech would mitigate against naval officers having a problem with it at TL 5.

I may also be having senior moments, but has anyone mentioned the numerous potential benefits of Essential Fuel? Of using (say) Golems as a warship's Black Gang? Essential Metal on a steam ram?

Those easrly steam engines and boilers were quite touchy and took careful management, including careful fueling. Golems, low-end undead, Servitors from Create Servant and the like would require a fair bit of supervision, which might well counter any savings in space, weight, and crew upkeep costs. On the other hand, being a golem wrangler would be less unpleasant than being a stoker, so it has that going for it.

[mlangsdorf]

Golems can have a single mental skill at 11, so Profession (Coal Stoker) or whatever seems plausible for a golem working on the Black Gang. You'd still want more skilled firemen, mechanics, and engineers to manage the engine, but shoveling coal shouldn't be that skilled a task. You might even be able to get away with zombies.

Though honestly, this again seems like one of those situations where having terra cotta, fireproof workers is better than having workers that are slowly rotting. Adding some rotten flesh to the coal in the boilers probably isn't that big an issue, but if my navy could afford it, I'd avoid the issue and use golems over zombies.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Though honestly, this again seems like one of those situations where having terra cotta, fireproof workers is better than having workers that are slowly rotting. Adding some rotten flesh to the coal in the boilers probably isn't that big an issue, but if my navy could afford it, I'd avoid the issue and use golems over zombies.

Combat Damage. Combat Damage alone would militate for Golems if it can be done. Steam explosions do terrible things to the human body. (Case example is TL 5-6 so not high pressure steam explosion, which is worse but still).

In the case of Golems you could have a ship be sunk (bad things happen in the engine room via steam) and if the ship can be raised again you would have usable Black Gang Golems survive (unless they were directly physically impacted by flying machinery etc).

By limiting actual humans to only supervisors you would vastly increase the odds of survival (also you would help save the most experienced and trained members of the Black Gang).

Otherwise you might be losing said valuable supervisors as they try and shut down (without said steam explosion) while sinking, trying to buy their crews a chance to live.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Tomich
in aeternum vivere fortes

[dcarson]

And every golem you have is one less person that needs to be fed and watered. Which when you have to carry the food and water matters. Plus they can work three shifts so it is actually 2-3 people less in supplies.

[seasalt]

Originally Posted by Witchking

Combat Damage. Combat Damage alone would militate for Golems if it can be done. Steam explosions do terrible things to the human body. (Case example is TL 5-6 so not high pressure steam explosion, which is worse but still).

In the case of Golems you could have a ship be sunk (bad things happen in the engine room via steam) and if the ship can be raised again you would have usable Black Gang Golems survive (unless they were directly physically impacted by flying machinery etc).

By limiting actual humans to only supervisors you would vastly increase the odds of survival (also you would help save the most experienced and trained members of the Black Gang).

Otherwise you might be losing said valuable supervisors as they try and shut down (without said steam explosion) while sinking, trying to buy their crews a chance to live.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Tomich
in aeternum vivere fortes

It's funny you all bring up golems... because one of the only examples of this era of military naval technology appearing in a videogame, "Sunless Seas" from about 10 years ago, did in fact have an option to supplement your crew with a sort of sentient (though not very smart) terra cotta golems, and the fact that they don't need food is one of the biggest advantages to them.

That being said, it all depends on how common wizards are. I was considering them to be pretty rare. Not quite "one in a million" rare, but rare enough that you would seldom have more than two or three except on the largest, most important ironclads, smaller escort ships usually having no spellcasters at all aborad, with each individual mage being powerful (especially when they can harness an engine/generator, I really like that idea) but having difficulty splitting their attention and power in so many directions.

I think a viable and thematic way of making a tough, undead-crewed warship, is for a powerful necromancer to produce cursed trinkets which transform the wearers into undead wraiths. This is, from what I can see, one of the only ways in the rules as written for a single mage to produce more mages, since the resulting wraith has magery 1 and can learn necromancy spells him or herself. They can then use "mass zombie" to animate a ghastly crew.

And, since the zombie/mass zombie spells require the corpses to be laying "in their grave or at their place of death", this gives me a really nasty idea for a backstory for a faction or an in-game event to set up antagonists (er, hopefully antagonists):

A cabal of powerful sorcerers convinces the royal family of an empire to grant them all commissions in the navy, and perhaps army as well. To commemorate the occasion, at the celebratory feast, the sorcerers distribute beautiful, enchanted golden emblems for the officers to pin on their uniforms, saying that the enchantment is "to protect them against drowning", which turns out to be one of those sinister metaphorical truths.

The following day, when the fleet is dispatched on a training maneuver with the new magical support on board for the first time, the crews are assembled on deck for a public address. During the speech about 'eternal duty', the sailors start to notice that their officers are unhealthily pale... and that their unblinking eyes are clouding over. And that some of them have blood coming from their noses, ears and mouths without noticing it, and that there is an unnatural marionette-like stiffness to their movements.

Then, when the sorcerers come out onto deck, the unfortunate sailors notice that they and their apprentices are all wearing gas masks, and recall those mysterious unmarked metal cylinders they were ordered to bring aboard...

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by seasalt

That being said, it all depends on how common wizards are. I was considering them to be pretty rare. Not quite "one in a million" rare, but rare enough that you would seldom have more than two or three except on the largest, most important ironclads, smaller escort ships usually having no spellcasters at all aborad, with each individual mage being powerful (especially when they can harness an engine/generator, I really like that idea) but having difficulty splitting their attention and power in so many directions.

Golems are enchantments, and again, relatively cheap ones (250 energy for the basic terra cotta golem). The basic golem is IQ 8 with 10 points in skills, and can be ordered by its creator to follow the orders of specific people (and presumably they can order it to follow other people's orders, etc). So it shouldn't matter how many wizards are on board the ship, just how many wizards are available to enchant golems back in the home country.

Golems work 24/7 and require no food, mess facilities, hygiene facilities, or sleeping space. Every golem stoker replaces at least 3 human stokers, and also reduces the crew overhead for chefs, mess mates, and surgeons. I'd expect most ships to have as many as they could manage, and a serious effort would be made to recover them if a ship starts to sink.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Golems are enchantments, and again, relatively cheap ones (250 energy for the basic terra cotta golem). The basic golem is IQ 8 with 10 points in skills, and can be ordered by its creator to follow the orders of specific people (and presumably they can order it to follow other people's orders, etc). So it shouldn't matter how many wizards are on board the ship, just how many wizards are available to enchant golems back in the home country.

Golems work 24/7 and require no food, mess facilities, hygiene facilities, or sleeping space. Every golem stoker replaces at least 3 human stokers, and also reduces the crew overhead for chefs, mess mates, and surgeons. I'd expect most ships to have as many as they could manage, and a serious effort would be made to recover them if a ship starts to sink.

Bear in mind that, assuming a mage capable of making a golem is merely Comfortable, each energy point costs $100 - and that's using the very generous assumptions in Magic - that mages won't be charing a premium for having to work continuously without days off for six months at a stretch (fewer with a circle, but this increases the chances of someone falling ill and delaying the project), or of there being delays. On the other hand, even if stokers are paid Struggling wages the wages alone will pay for it in only four years.

A few things though - they obey the order of their creators and those that their creator tells them to obey. So, how many layers of delegation of command authority will that allow? Is it just the creator and those directly assigned command authority, or can the creator say "Follow the orders of this person, and anyone they order you to obey", and if so, can those people also say that?

Another thing is that it's explicit that only the creator can heal a golem, so if they break it might be quite difficult or impossible to get them repaired (this is one good reason to have circles of mages make them).