we want more denizens!!!

[zoncxs]

Imbuements for martial artists!

That is always my answer to make them better. Imbuement skills based on Will or DX (I always go with Will in my games) and chi talent adds to it. The esoteric skills also become imbuement skills at that point.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

That doesn't follow. If you give Holy Warriors access to Weapon Master, they will already be supreme when combating undead and demons.

That they are not supreme without it is not evidence that new advantages need to be created. They just need better access to existing advantages. Heroic Grace for example becomes LOTS better if you've got Weapon Master, not to mention Peter's revised Higher Purpose. Say hello to three attacks at 4d+20!

P.S. That's a fairly typical result, not a theoretical maximum. Maximum with a half-ogre Holy Warrior at ST 24 + Contingency Casting (Might IV) + Contingency Casting (Flaming Weapon) + Striking ST 2 + Weapon Master (greatsword) + a very fine greatsword + Heroic Grace (2d6 ST that rolls a +7) + Higher Purpose 3 (Peter's version, gives +3 to every die rolled)...

That's effective ST 24+4+2+7 (37). Sw+5 damage is 6d+7. Total damage per hit: 6d+37 cut + 2 burning. (58 cut + 2.) That's high enough to give you a good chance to kill a Grimmdar in single combat!!!

4d+20 is not a maximum, just an illustration of a fairly typical damage output assuming access to Weapon Master and revised Higher Purpose. Holy Warriors don't lack cool ways to spend extra points they get beyond that.

Holy Warriors shouldn't be better than knights at fight anything but undead/demons. And there they should crazy shine on.

[Farmer]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I was going to suggest Breaking Blow for the former, but checking its description I see it doesn't apply to natural armor

I'm currently on a ship without immediate access to my PDFs, but the new Denizens Thieves I'm sure had an advantage that enabled this specifically.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

Imbuements for martial artists!

That is always my answer to make them better. Imbuement skills based on Will or DX (I always go with Will in my games) and chi talent adds to it. The esoteric skills also become imbuement skills at that point.

Hmmm. I kinda like that.

[mr beer]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

I'd jooze it up by giving them some stuff from MH Power-Ups 1 myself. Powers to do do aura effects to allies, better holy damage, even better Heroic Feats, supernatural offensive and defensive stuff, and so on. I'd consider a perk/optional rule/something that collapses the need for like 3 skills to know stuff about demons and undead. There is a lot that could be done.

I experimented with adding these:

The Paladin may use a Ready maneuver to switch on an Aura which protects everyone he desires within 4 yards as follows. Only one Aura can be used at a time.

Aura of Courage (Fearlessness, Area Effect 4 yards +100%, Affects Others +50%, Force Field +20%, Holy -10%, Selective Area +20%, Switchable +10%, +190%) [6/level to a maximum of 5 levels].

Aura of Protection (Damage Resistance, Area Effect 4 yards +100%, Affects Others +50%, Force Field +20%, Holy -10%, Selective Area +20%, Switchable +10%, +190%) [15/level to a maximum of 2 levels].

Aura of Resistance (Magic Resistance, Area Effect 4 yards +100%, Affects Others +50%, Force Field +20%, Holy -10%, Selective Area +20%, Switchable +10%, +190%) [6/level to a maximum of 5 levels].

Probably it needs some sort of Fatigue cost to activate and maintain though.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Farmer

I'm currently on a ship without immediate access to my PDFs, but the new Denizens Thieves I'm sure had an advantage that enabled this specifically.

There's a perk, Precise Strike, that lets you learn a version of Breaking Blow that provides Armour Divisor 5 against natural armour of living biological creatures. See p. 19 of DF Denizens: Thieves.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

Holy Warriors shouldn't be better than knights at fight anything but undead/demons. And there they should crazy shine on.

So give them Weapon Master with Limitation (Undead Only, -50%) or (Demon Only, -50%) or both (-25%).

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by mr beer

I experimented with adding these:

The Paladin may use a Ready maneuver to switch on an Aura which protects everyone he desires within 4 yards as follows. Only one Aura can be used at a time.

Aura of Courage (Fearlessness, Area Effect 4 yards +100%, Affects Others +50%, Force Field +20%, Holy -10%, Selective Area +20%, Switchable +10%, +190%) [6/level to a maximum of 5 levels].

Aura of Protection (Damage Resistance, Area Effect 4 yards +100%, Affects Others +50%, Force Field +20%, Holy -10%, Selective Area +20%, Switchable +10%, +190%) [15/level to a maximum of 2 levels].

Aura of Resistance (Magic Resistance, Area Effect 4 yards +100%, Affects Others +50%, Force Field +20%, Holy -10%, Selective Area +20%, Switchable +10%, +190%) [6/level to a maximum of 5 levels].

Probably it needs some sort of Fatigue cost to activate and maintain though.

Agreed. And all are good and in line with my thinking of how holy warriors should be powered up.

Originally Posted by Anders

So give them Weapon Master with Limitation (Undead Only, -50%) or (Demon Only, -50%) or both (-25%).

Meh. Striking ST would be better especially since 4 levels would give +2/die for 10 points and it could go higher.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

Holy Warriors shouldn't be better than knights at fight anything but undead/demons. And there they should crazy shine on.

I agree. But if you're suggesting that the Holy Warrior I just postulated is better than Knights or Swashbucklers at fighting e.g. giants or dragons... it isn't.

Knights don't have Heroic Grace, Resist Evil, Magic Resistance, Contingency Casting, or Higher Purpose, but they do have Extra Attack 2, Armor Mastery, Shield Wall Training, etc. Against giants and dragons the points a Holy Warrior spent in holy traits are largely (not entirely) wasted, while the knight gets full value.

The Holy Warrior is likely inferior in this scenario, possibly comparable. But not better than the knight (or Swashbuckler).

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

I agree. But if you're suggesting that the Holy Warrior I just postulated is better than Knights or Swashbucklers at fighting e.g. giants or dragons... it isn't.

Knights don't have Heroic Grace, Resist Evil, Magic Resistance, Contingency Casting, or Higher Purpose, but they do have Extra Attack 2, Armor Mastery, Shield Wall Training, etc. Against giants and dragons the points a Holy Warrior spent in holy traits are largely (not entirely) wasted, while the knight gets full value.

The Holy Warrior is likely inferior in this scenario, possibly comparable. But not better than the knight (or Swashbuckler).

No, not at all. I'm simply saying *I* wouldn't do it like that were *I* to write a Denizens book for holy warriors. Different strokes for different folks and all.