GURPS: Amber

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Corwin could sprint for hours while holdin a 200 lb man in his arms while he may have been a weakened condition. Cowin and Random once fenced for 24 hours straight. That's beyond even HT15 and Very Fit.

With a 16+, you fail ~2%, but only lose half the fatigue (VF), or basically 1 fatigue per 100 rolls which comes out to about 1 FP/25 min for about 5 hour before any rest. A higher HT doesn't help (HT14 + VF already gets you to 16), though each additional FP would add 25 min of sprinting time. Lancelot should be under BL for Corwin's ST.

As for the 24 hour fencing, I'm not sure how much fatigue it would require, put presumably it would more like paced running than sprinting. To get to 24 hour of paced running without any breaks you'd need 20+ FP.

I also once googled for 1960s Mercedes jsut to see how strong Corwin and Random needed to be for that car lifting stunt in the first book. Unless their sister had a sporty little coupe I got answers more like 35+ than 30. Benedict could also lift and throw a large man across a room one-handed. That's about ST 35 too.

I come up with 2568lbs. I couldn't find the working together rules other than a vague reference to add BLs. That would give you a BL360 for 2 ST30 characters allowing them to lift and move a car up to 3600lbs without extra effort at 1/5 move. That seems high enough unless you're suggesting a lower enc value?

A large man (300lbs?) with ST 30 (BL 180) is a .6 ratio, using the higher (.75) that's a x.7 distance multiplier for 21 yards on a one-handed throw. How large of a room are you envisioning (not snarky, necessary to figure out the math right)?

Later generations don't appear to be so tough. Merlin and Luke joined a college track team and sincerely competed againt normal humans for example.

Actually, IIRC first clue that Luke wasn't "normal" was that they really only competed against each other. Of course neither of them gained notoriety for shattering world records either so I suspect that they were closer to top human than into the "no human could possibly do this" category.

Later on Luke demonstrates pretty amazing ST wrestling Dalt, so I'm not sure how much later generations really lose.

So say the car weighs 3000 lbs.—light, but not a subcompact. Each of them needs to lift 1500 lbs. If that's a heavy load, then their Basic Lift needs to be 250 lbs. If they have ST 35, their Basic Lift is 245 lbs., which is probably close enough. So giving them ST +25 would get them somewhere near to the right range.

35 isn't unreasonable for those two. It's a bit higher than I had it (closer to 30), but I was figuring it at X-Hvy instead of Hvy. The real question becomes whether or not to use Lifting ST or KYOS at that point, since ST25+ gets a very poor return on the points spent.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by naloth

A large man (300lbs?) with ST 30 (BL 180) is a .6 ratio, using the higher (.75) that's a x.7 distance multiplier for 21 yards on a one-handed throw. How large of a room are you envisioning (not snarky, necessary to figure out the math right)?

.

I was figuring first lifting a 245 lb man in a single Turn (virtually the definition of BL) and then throwing him. Getting the distance is the easy part.

as for the car....

https://www.auto-data.net/en/mercede...utomatic-44708

......this is pretty close to my best guess with a gross weight over 4000 lbs. There were bigger models.

I believe the proceedure would be to combine the 10x BL maximum lift and move numbers (but without any extra effort). A 30 would have been enough for many cars but for thsi sort of thing i think you want a little more.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I believe the proceedure would be to combine the 10x BL maximum lift and move numbers (but without any extra effort). A 30 would have been enough for many cars but for thsi sort of thing i think you want a little more.

Fair enough. That puts Corwin and Benedict with at least a lifting ST of 35, perhaps a bit higher.

For reference here's the lowest to highest ST for how the Amber game puts the relative ST of the Amberites we see doing things at (where min means whatever the default Amber ST is). These numbers are for comparison to say who's stronger but not a value for what they accomplish.
Brand ST Min
Fiona ST Min
Caine ST Min - 25
Benedict ST 10-15
Bleys ST 15-35
Eric ST 15
Corwin ST 16-30
Flora ST 20-45
Julian ST 25-35
Random ST 25-50
Llewella ST 30-50
Dierdre ST 35-55
Gerard ST 120-253

Brand and Fiona should be significantly weaker than Corwin, so if we put the base at ST30, Benedict at 35, Corwin ST 40, that puts Random at around 45, and Gerard with 50+. (ST here being a combination of ST + Lifting ST.) Thoughts?

Edit: Template Revision for Amber would be ST+10 / Lifting ST+10 (base 30), Any addition points of ST should be +1 ST and +1 Lifting (13 points/ea). If we separate future tiers by a nice gap of +3 (total 6), that puts Benedict at +12/+12 (total 34). Corwin would be +15/+15 (total 40). Random comes to +18/+18 (total 46). Gerard at +21/+21 (total 52).

[cptbutton]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Later generations don't appear to be so tough. Merlin and Luke joined a college track team and sincerely competed againt normal humans for example.

Maybe ST slowly grows with age? Merlin and Luke are probably 50 at most. (Though with differing time rates who knows?) While the elder Amberites are many centuries old.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by cptbutton

Maybe ST slowly grows with age? Merlin and Luke are probably 50 at most. (Though with differing time rates who knows?) While the elder Amberites are many centuries old.

Possibly. I suspect the generation may have more to do with it but there just isn't enough to say either way.

On a different note, before I get into fleshing out more powers here's my general design philosophy. Amber, as a representative of order, will focus on imposing their will (changing things to suit them). Chaos will focus on adaptability (being able to handle a greater number of situations).

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by naloth

Possibly. I suspect the generation may have more to do with it but there just isn't enough to say either way.

Yeah, Oberon is half Chaos-born shapeshifter and half Divine Unicorn. His children (probably) dilute that with (mostly) Shadow-born human blood with each generation after that diluting it with more humanity. Though Merlin and Luke have some not very human blood too.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Yeah, Oberon is half Chaos-born shapeshifter and half Divine Unicorn. His children (probably) dilute that with (mostly) Shadow-born human blood with each generation after that diluting it with more humanity. Though Merlin and Luke have some not very human blood too.

Agreed... Of course, we'll need a different explanation for Dworkin who by all accounts can physically best most if not all Oberon's children. Perhaps the "I am the Pattern and the Pattern is I" grants him the ability to make his own rules.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by naloth

Possibly. I suspect the generation may have more to do with it but there just isn't enough to say either way.

On a different note, before I get into fleshing out more powers here's my general design philosophy. Amber, as a representative of order, will focus on imposing their will (changing things to suit them). Chaos will focus on adaptability (being able to handle a greater number of situations).

Speaking of which, Serendipity is in there somewhere.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by naloth

Possibly. I suspect the generation may have more to do with it but there just isn't enough to say either way.

There's Dworkin's "yea, unto the third generation" line. There's a generational limit on his descendant's blood being able to affect the Pattern. It's not a stretch to imagine that also limits their ability to benefit from it, and further to suppose a decline in strength from generation to generation. Dworkin can best Oberon's children simply because he's more powerful, what with being the creator of the Pattern and Generation 0. (Oberon's 1, Corwin and siblings 2, and Merlin/Luke/etc 3. And that's it -- if you want to believe Dworkin, anyway.)

But Zelazny was a very intuitive writer, just putting things down as he went along and trusting his ability to make it come out right. I doubt he had a bunch of rigid worldbuilding rules defined ahead of time (though he probably kept a bible just to keep continuity and remind himself of his inspirations).

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Corwin could sprint for hours while holdin a 200 lb man in his arms while he may have been a weakened condition. Cowin and Random once fenced for 24 hours straight. That's beyond even HT15 and Very Fit.

I also once googled for 1960s Mercedes jsut to see how strong Corwin and Random needed to be for that car lifting stunt in the first book. Unless their sister had a sporty little coupe I got answers more like 35+ than 30. Benedict could also lift and throw a large man across a room one-handed. That's about ST 35 too.

Later generations don't appear to be so tough. Merlin and Luke joined a college track team and sincerely competed againt normal humans for example.

They also tossed motorcycles around; a Harley-Davidson runs 500-900 lbs.