[DF] A bit of help with fortresses, their design, and capture.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

In AD&D, sure, but DF is not GURPS AD&D. In Diablo or Nethack you never become a Murder Homeowner. But really I just wanted to type "Murder Homeowner".

I think Gygax's original D&D game had the PCs taking over parts of the cleared dungeon and so forth. It's something that's almost bound to come up as soon as the PCs notice that there appear to be some valuable possessions of their slain enemies that are either nailed down or too heavy to lug out. They'll ask why they can't set up their homes where they've got all that fancy immobile loot.

[mhd]

The chances of them buying homes increases a lot if the campaign time doesn't progress that rapidly, i.e. it's a difference if they reach 9th level in three month or after three years of adventuring. (Although I haven't found a correlation between likelyhood of settling down and player age. For every reasonable keep-builder, there's someone who'd rather go raidin' than recreate his own mortgagin')

Never mind that I always thought that building keeps and thieves guilds was more a throwback to the wargaming days. Maybe my sources are just different, but it never looked to me like it was emulating the fantasy genre. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser didn't settle down, Elric basically went the other way altogether and Conan wouldn't exactly be satisfied with a small motte-and-bailey…

[Dunadin777]

Originally Posted by mhd

Conan wouldn't exactly be satisfied with a small motte-and-bailey…

Confused by what you mean by this reference to the King-by-his-own-hand. Are you saying barbarian adventurers don't desire massive, immobile wealth fixtures and grand titles of power?

[mhd]

Originally Posted by Dunadin777

Confused by what you mean by this reference to the King-by-his-own-hand. Are you saying barbarian adventurers don't desire massive, immobile wealth fixtures and grand titles of power?

Your average name level keep is neither massive nor grand, so doesn't really compare to the kingdom of Aquilonia itself. Although I might misremember a few things. I know that Conan always tried his hand at being a leader of men (riders, pirates etc.), but did he "own property" before?

[Dunadin777]

Originally Posted by mhd

Your average name level keep is neither massive nor grand, so doesn't really compare to the kingdom of Aquilonia itself. Although I might misremember a few things. I know that Conan always tried his hand at being a leader of men (riders, pirates etc.), but did he "own property" before?

Before, I don't believe so, but I'm a terribly casual fan of Conan--not too knowledgeable.

So you're saying DF adventurers tend to remain Warrior Hobos of Awesome until they can scrape up a real title and then assume a throne? I suppose I can see how that fits the sub-genre, though that's a contributing factor to why I eschew DF.

Still, I think in this sort of situation the PCs are looking for the static wealth fixtures as a symbol of their success along those lords-by-their-own-hands lines, and even in a DF campaign I don't think it's out of line to let them acquire a good number of forts and followers to measure their political success. You just need to ensure that for some reason they always need to do the important fighting, or it ceases to be DF, IMHO.

[mhd]

Originally Posted by Dunadin777

So you're saying DF adventurers tend to remain Warrior Hobos of Awesome until they can scrape up a real title and then assume a throne? I suppose I can see how that fits the sub-genre, though that's a contributing factor to why I eschew DF.

Oh, dear Crom, no. I didn't mean to make any judgement about the DF situation at all, I was just talking about one of its big inspirations (D&D) and where I saw conflicts between that and its inspirations in turn.

I'm just stealing bits of pieces myself from DF, but despite my personal reservations, I believe that the fantasy sub-genre that we call "Dungeon Fantasy" has much room for all kinds of inspirations.

Yes, you could go the way of adventurer-lord-immortal, but you could easily let that cup pass you by *or* start out being the master of your own domain(s).

If the vaults of the ancients wield enough treasure and I'm at home in a classical city-state environment, I might just buy a few palaces, pay the rulers enormous bribes and have all that I need without the trouble of defending puny serfs.

On the other hand, given the high starting "level" of default DF characters, they could start out as lords, each and every one of them. Imagine a setting that takes its hints from some Arthurian myths. You're knightly knights in a feudal setting, but instead of Roman villas, you have the remains of an early empire, in which you descend to fight your quests. But you still have a duty to your people, your liege and your <insertdeityorgroupofdeities>.

Both of them literally dungeon-crawling campaigns, but with a different take on founding your own keep/cloister/guild/shrubbery shoppe.

Whatever the GM and the players like to run. I'm just a bit against seeing lordship as the natural, obvious and somewhat mandatory "next level" of characters.

[Lord Carnifex]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

But really I just wanted to type "Murder Homeowner".

Brings new meaning to "Hey! You kids, get off my lawn!"