Modular attributes?

Dichotomy · 02-12-2020, 08:30 AM

I'm trying to create a racial ability to represent a races limited ability to shapeshift. They already have elastic skin, but I'm also trying to include something non-cosmetic and I know what I want it to do, but I'm not sure what it should cost:

Modular attributes: you have 20 points to move around between attributes (so +2 ST, +1 ST +1 HT, or +1 IQ, etc), at the end of a 5+ hours rest you can change where these points are allocated.

Anyone have any ideas? Would adding the option to include secondary characteristics be a bad idea?

Modular abilities doesn't seem to fit at all, so I'm not sure where to get the base cost, or exactly how the "only after extended rest" limitation applies for discounts and I'd like players of this race to be able to increase the size of their point pool over time if they want to with additional points.

Culture20 · 02-12-2020, 08:39 AM

Attributes are advantages, so modular abilities works.

Dichotomy · 02-12-2020, 08:43 AM

So what kind of limitation/discount does "can only change after rest, limited to attributes only" apply to modular abilities then? In order to represent the indicated versatility they'd need to be a Cosmic pool as opposed to seperate slots

AlexanderHowl · 02-12-2020, 11:44 AM

Attributes are not advantages, they (and secondary characteristics) are a different category than advantages, so they are not legal for Modular Abilities. However, you can make them into abilities, so it would be reasonable to have them as Alternate Abilities. Alternatively, you can use Alternate Form to represent different attribute levels.

In the case of Alternate Abilities, a super could be able from force to speed. When they choose force, they get +10 ST. When they choose speed, they get Basic Speed +5.00. In any case, they pay 120 CP (before modifiers).

In the case of the Alternate Form, a super could have a mobility form and a battle form. One for is the base form while the other is the alternate form. The mobility form would have DX+4 and HT+4 while the battle form would have ST+10 and HT+2. The cost would be 15 CP (before modifiers).

Plane · 02-12-2020, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dichotomy

So what kind of limitation/discount does "can only change after rest, limited to attributes only" apply to modular abilities then?

"can only change after rest" sounds like it might resemble B114 Preparation Required ?

you said earlier "at the end of a 5+ hours rest" so the closest would be 1 hour (-50%) or 8 hours (-60%). Assigning something like -55% to 5 hours sounds okay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Attributes are not advantages, they (and secondary characteristics) are a different category than advantages, so they are not legal for Modular Abilities. However, you can make them into abilities, so it would be reasonable to have them as Alternate Abilities.

P13 "Attributes as Abilities" mentions "Price such a bonus as additional levels of the affected score, adjusted as usual for modifiers. List it as an advantage"

That last sentence sounds like this instance of it might work under Modular Abilities, if limited so they don't always work?

"Maximum Duration: 24 Hours -0%" could be one way of doing that. A daily 5-minute reset for these creatures wouldn't be too crippling a downside, and fit well into their "I need some downtime to reset my abilities" concept.

Dichotomy · 02-12-2020, 12:37 PM

Thanks for your feedback, I'm kinda new to running GURPS and there's just a lot of stuff I don't know

That makes sense for supers, but to model the limited shapeshifting of this race I think a pool that can be redistributed (analogous to Cosmic pool modular abilities) works better than defined forms.

I kind of want to just have it cost 2-3 points per character point in the pool, and have the pool restricted to attributes. There really isn't THAT much versatility with only 4 options, and it scales pretty well, if someone wants to sink a lot of points into morphing they're going to wind up with half as many total points as someone who just put the same number of points into a skill.

Dichotomy · 02-12-2020, 12:46 PM

So call it:

Modular Abilities (Cosmic pool) (10 points per)
Requires prep (-60%)
Special limitation: attributes only (sort of like physical only, but definitely a limitation rather than an enhancement) -20%

That puts it at 2 points per point, am I mis-evaluating the cost of the special limitation?

~~NineDaysDead~~ · 02-12-2020, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dichotomy

Special limitation: attributes only (sort of like physical only, but definitely a limitation rather than an enhancement) -20%

At least -30%; "only being able to add points to abilities you already have: -20%" (Powers page 64) Would cover attributes and a whole lot more, so it needs to be a greater percentage than that.

Dichotomy · 02-12-2020, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

At least -30%; "only being able to add points to abilities you already have: -20%" (Powers page 64) Would cover attributes and a whole lot more, so it needs to be a greater percentage than that.

Ah, but for Modular Abilities, normally you need to buy an enhancement to have it apply to physical abilities at all, +100% for just adding the ability to include physical, +50% if you're doing only physical and no social/mental. So I definitely think that gets calculated in

Anaraxes · 02-12-2020, 02:58 PM

Prep Required means preparation that's taking your active time away from doing something else, like conducting a ritual or meditating -- not just resting, which you have to do anyway. (I might allow a "vigil" that specifically prevents you from resting, but only if you're enforcing long-term FP loss from loss of sleep.) An 8-hour prep required means losing a working day and also sleeping, so effectively getting to use the ability on an adventure about every other day. That's what justifies the -60% value. Merely being limited to choosing one ability per day isn't nearly as limiting as losing a day of productivity every time you use the ability.

That still leaves us with the problem of a Limitation for "infrequent change time". The go-to Limitations for cooldowns are Takes Recharge and Limited Use. Those, however, are meant to apply to _uses_ of an ability, not swaps, as is Prep Required. Choosing an attribute that you can use all day once per day isn't at all the same as an attribute that you can only use once per day. (Rolled a melee attack? That's your one use of DX for the day. Actually hit? That's your one use of ST for the day...)

The Alternative Abilities build is probably the simplest. AA is almost always cheaper than Modular Abilities when there are few abilities. MA only pays off its overhead when you need a lot of flexibility. 4 20-point abilities would cost the full price for the most expensive (20 points), plus 1/5th cost (not -80%!) for the others -- or 4, 4, and 4 points, for a total of 32. By default, that only takes a Ready Maneuver to switch between abilities in the AA set, though.

All the choices of ability are good ones. There is a Limitation because you have to guess which attribute will come in handy. But it's not like you're deprived of the benefits of the others, and won't figure out ways to apply your current strengths even if there's a hypothetically better ability you could have chosen. So, the "choose once per day" is a small Limitation, an inconvenience. I'd file it under Nuisance Effect for -5% or -10%.

Restrictions on what you can choose with MA can be built into the slot type. This is why the existing slot types (like "chip slot") are cheaper than the "Cosmic" slot -- they have limitations on the time and effort required to change. Note the distinction between limiting the slot (limits on changing the ability) and limitations on every ability in a pool (some limit that every ability must have, for some reason, often like a Power Modifier or some other common feature thanks to the abilities' origin). In this case, you'd be inventing a new slot type. In general, I think Limitations on the entire pool are just shorthand for "every ability in this pool is built with these Limitations".

(Consider what happens if I put Prep Required on the pool, and then decide to put Prep Required on an ability in the pool, because it's special. RAW tries to call out a couple of modifiers by name (Prep Req and Limited Use) as always modifying "time to change", but I find it simpler to think of those as two special cases of "everything in the pool has X", and the two views wind up with the same net effect. One way gives you (say) 20 points that cost 10 each, limited by -80% to cost 2 each, for a net of 40, into which you put two 10-point abilities; the other way says you have 4 points of cosmic costing 40, but everything has the two Limitations summing to -80%, so those 4 points can hold two base 10 point abilities (net 2 each).)

You could also use either of the Shapeshifting Advantages. The 100-point minimum on Morph makes it impractical for a minor ability. 15 points per form for Alternate Form also makes that solution not very useful for what's effectively a 20-point form. Those abilities are really only for major changes of major forms.

02-12-2020, 08:30 AM	#1
Dichotomy Join Date: Feb 2020	Modular attributes? I'm trying to create a racial ability to represent a races limited ability to shapeshift. They already have elastic skin, but I'm also trying to include something non-cosmetic and I know what I want it to do, but I'm not sure what it should cost: Modular attributes: you have 20 points to move around between attributes (so +2 ST, +1 ST +1 HT, or +1 IQ, etc), at the end of a 5+ hours rest you can change where these points are allocated. Anyone have any ideas? Would adding the option to include secondary characteristics be a bad idea? Modular abilities doesn't seem to fit at all, so I'm not sure where to get the base cost, or exactly how the "only after extended rest" limitation applies for discounts and I'd like players of this race to be able to increase the size of their point pool over time if they want to with additional points.

02-12-2020, 08:39 AM	#2
Culture20 Join Date: Feb 2014	Re: Modular attributes? Attributes are advantages, so modular abilities works.

02-12-2020, 08:43 AM	#3
Dichotomy Join Date: Feb 2020	Re: Modular attributes? So what kind of limitation/discount does "can only change after rest, limited to attributes only" apply to modular abilities then? In order to represent the indicated versatility they'd need to be a Cosmic pool as opposed to seperate slots

02-12-2020, 11:44 AM	#4
AlexanderHowl Join Date: Feb 2016	Re: Modular attributes? Attributes are not advantages, they (and secondary characteristics) are a different category than advantages, so they are not legal for Modular Abilities. However, you can make them into abilities, so it would be reasonable to have them as Alternate Abilities. Alternatively, you can use Alternate Form to represent different attribute levels. In the case of Alternate Abilities, a super could be able from force to speed. When they choose force, they get +10 ST. When they choose speed, they get Basic Speed +5.00. In any case, they pay 120 CP (before modifiers). In the case of the Alternate Form, a super could have a mobility form and a battle form. One for is the base form while the other is the alternate form. The mobility form would have DX+4 and HT+4 while the battle form would have ST+10 and HT+2. The cost would be 15 CP (before modifiers).

02-12-2020, 12:37 PM	#6
Dichotomy Join Date: Feb 2020	Re: Modular attributes? Thanks for your feedback, I'm kinda new to running GURPS and there's just a lot of stuff I don't know That makes sense for supers, but to model the limited shapeshifting of this race I think a pool that can be redistributed (analogous to Cosmic pool modular abilities) works better than defined forms. I kind of want to just have it cost 2-3 points per character point in the pool, and have the pool restricted to attributes. There really isn't THAT much versatility with only 4 options, and it scales pretty well, if someone wants to sink a lot of points into morphing they're going to wind up with half as many total points as someone who just put the same number of points into a skill.

02-12-2020, 12:46 PM	#7
Dichotomy Join Date: Feb 2020	Re: Modular attributes? So call it: Modular Abilities (Cosmic pool) (10 points per) Requires prep (-60%) Special limitation: attributes only (sort of like physical only, but definitely a limitation rather than an enhancement) -20% That puts it at 2 points per point, am I mis-evaluating the cost of the special limitation?

02-12-2020, 02:58 PM	#10
Anaraxes Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: Modular attributes? Prep Required means preparation that's taking your active time away from doing something else, like conducting a ritual or meditating -- not just resting, which you have to do anyway. (I might allow a "vigil" that specifically prevents you from resting, but only if you're enforcing long-term FP loss from loss of sleep.) An 8-hour prep required means losing a working day and also sleeping, so effectively getting to use the ability on an adventure about every other day. That's what justifies the -60% value. Merely being limited to choosing one ability per day isn't nearly as limiting as losing a day of productivity every time you use the ability. That still leaves us with the problem of a Limitation for "infrequent change time". The go-to Limitations for cooldowns are Takes Recharge and Limited Use. Those, however, are meant to apply to _uses_ of an ability, not swaps, as is Prep Required. Choosing an attribute that you can use all day once per day isn't at all the same as an attribute that you can only use once per day. (Rolled a melee attack? That's your one use of DX for the day. Actually hit? That's your one use of ST for the day...) The Alternative Abilities build is probably the simplest. AA is almost always cheaper than Modular Abilities when there are few abilities. MA only pays off its overhead when you need a lot of flexibility. 4 20-point abilities would cost the full price for the most expensive (20 points), plus 1/5th cost (not -80%!) for the others -- or 4, 4, and 4 points, for a total of 32. By default, that only takes a Ready Maneuver to switch between abilities in the AA set, though. All the choices of ability are good ones. There is a Limitation because you have to guess which attribute will come in handy. But it's not like you're deprived of the benefits of the others, and won't figure out ways to apply your current strengths even if there's a hypothetically better ability you could have chosen. So, the "choose once per day" is a small Limitation, an inconvenience. I'd file it under Nuisance Effect for -5% or -10%. Restrictions on what you can choose with MA can be built into the slot type. This is why the existing slot types (like "chip slot") are cheaper than the "Cosmic" slot -- they have limitations on the time and effort required to change. Note the distinction between limiting the slot (limits on changing the ability) and limitations on every ability in a pool (some limit that every ability must have, for some reason, often like a Power Modifier or some other common feature thanks to the abilities' origin). In this case, you'd be inventing a new slot type. In general, I think Limitations on the entire pool are just shorthand for "every ability in this pool is built with these Limitations". (Consider what happens if I put Prep Required on the pool, and then decide to put Prep Required on an ability in the pool, because it's special. RAW tries to call out a couple of modifiers by name (Prep Req and Limited Use) as always modifying "time to change", but I find it simpler to think of those as two special cases of "everything in the pool has X", and the two views wind up with the same net effect. One way gives you (say) 20 points that cost 10 each, limited by -80% to cost 2 each, for a net of 40, into which you put two 10-point abilities; the other way says you have 4 points of cosmic costing 40, but everything has the two Limitations summing to -80%, so those 4 points can hold two base 10 point abilities (net 2 each).) You could also use either of the Shapeshifting Advantages. The 100-point minimum on Morph makes it impractical for a minor ability. 15 points per form for Alternate Form also makes that solution not very useful for what's effectively a 20-point form. Those abilities are really only for major changes of major forms.