Mental hit points - alternatives to Stress and Derangement rules?

[Dark Archon]

I am building another dark fantasy game, and it is my wish to introduce some sort of "stress bar" like one in Darkest Dungeon to have mechanical way to describe descension of PCs into madness.

Okay, right now you are suggesting to use Stress and Derangement rules from Horror into my game. However, there is a number of reasons I don't want to do this: Stress and Derangement are penalties to Fright Checks. However, to make them matter, you need to roll FCs - and you need to fail them. Unless you are willing to make FC in every fight and every stressful situation - multiple times - there isn't a big chance that they are going to accumulate big penalties and start accumulating disadvantages. They are also don't do much to players besides giving them penalties to FCs, because, frankly, self-control rolls and "skill rolls that demand a steady hand" don't matter that much.

I would like more to have "mental hit points" bar, based on Will, with going down meaning penalties to skills and active defences, and going way down (-1xWill and down) meaning need to roll Will to stay on your feet and not to reduce to screaming wreck. I would like to talk about exact details in this thread - effects of going down, ways to inflict stress and gain disadvantages, ways and rate of restoration and so on - with interested people.

The main problem I see with my approach is that there is still division into short-term and long-term stress, and combining them together into one bar isn't good. Rate of restoration is also a problem: too fast of restoration and it isn't as horrible anymore, too slow of restoration and we have situation where adventurers go for weeks from mental trauma of being in the darkness for too long.

[vicky_molokh]

How about making restoration similar to first aid, so that 1d of it gets restored once the stress is over, but if the stress was scarier than 3 points, chances are in favour of letting the consequences stay for a while?

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Dark Archon

I am building another dark fantasy game, and it is my wish to introduce some sort of "stress bar" like one in Darkest Dungeon to have mechanical way to describe descension of PCs into madness.

Okay, right now you are suggesting to use Stress and Derangement rules from Horror into my game. However, there is a number of reasons I don't want to do this: Stress and Derangement are penalties to Fright Checks. However, to make them matter, you need to roll FCs - and you need to fail them. Unless you are willing to make FC in every fight and every stressful situation - multiple times - there isn't a big chance that they are going to accumulate big penalties and start accumulating disadvantages. They are also don't do much to players besides giving them penalties to FCs, because, frankly, self-control rolls and "skill rolls that demand a steady hand" don't matter that much.

I would like more to have "mental hit points" bar, based on Will, with going down meaning penalties to skills and active defences, and going way down (-1xWill and down) meaning need to roll Will to stay on your feet and not to reduce to screaming wreck. I would like to talk about exact details in this thread - effects of going down, ways to inflict stress and gain disadvantages, ways and rate of restoration and so on - with interested people.

The main problem I see with my approach is that there is still division into short-term and long-term stress, and combining them together into one bar isn't good. Rate of restoration is also a problem: too fast of restoration and it isn't as horrible anymore, too slow of restoration and we have situation where adventurers go for weeks from mental trauma of being in the darkness for too long.

A quick suggestion off the top of my head, how about adapting the "Last Gasp" AP system as it has long and short term effects (and ways to cross over between the two)

So instead of long term Fatigue Points, you now have MFP (Mental Fatigue Points) and short term Action Points you now have MAP (Mental Action Points)


MFP would equate to Will

MAP would be calculated like AP but using the relevant advantages & skills etc


You would spend MAP when acting in scary situations, and specifically scary attacks event might inflict MAP damage as well*. Recovery actions would be based on Will and relevant advantages etc which is you seeking to get a grip etc, etc

Spend too many and you dip into MFP which can give you the dame physical penalties you ware looking for. Although you might want to adjust that to taste as I'm not sure ST should be penalised for instance.


Crossing from MAP to MFP would symbolise, moving from short term fight/flight stress & trauma to longer term trauma.

Anyway just my first thought based on the fact I really like Last Gasp, so not fully worked out or anything. I call it "last Gasp"



*you could work the current fright checks into this I reckon

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

How about making restoration similar to first aid, so that 1d of it gets restored once the stress is over, but if the stress was scarier than 3 points, chances are in favour of letting the consequences stay for a while?

Riffing off the first aid thing, you could also model ongoing fear damage in the same way as bleeding. So 3 successful Will rolls, or a crit will success would be getting over the trauma, but no successes and thus on going loss would symbolise it continuing to effect you.


Going further with the comparison you could even have a distinction between really bad sources of 'fear bleeding' where different more specialised skills are needed to treat it (mirroring the first-aid / surgery spilt for different bleeding locations)

[Varyon]

Here's a basic concept, heavily influenced by "The Last Gasp." Feel free to modify as you see fit.

Sanity and Madness

Characters start with Sanity Points (San) equal to their base Fright Check number (without applying Rule of 15). A character who's San starts below 10 is likely to already have notable Mental Disadvantages. For example, a character with Will 12 and Fearlessness 5 would have San 17.

Any event that would normally call for a Fright Check instead deals 1d-3 Madness (Mad), to a minimum of 0. If it would normally call for a penalized Fright Check, apply the penalty as a bonus to this damage. Sanity-Blasting Fright Checks do normal Mad, but also reduce San by 1 for every full 3 Mad inflicted. Some stressful situations - such as being confined in the dark over a long period - slowly inflict Madness over time. As a character acquires Madness, he becomes stressed out and may begin to behave erratically. If Madness exceeds San/4, the character suffers a -1 the Self Control checks, precision work, and so forth (basically, anything that Stress penalizes), which worsens to -2 beyond San/2, -3 beyond San*3/4, and so forth. Additionally, a character who has Madness at or above Sanity doesn't behave quite right, gaining Stress Atavism (Mild; 18 or less). This is upgraded to Stress Atavism (Moderate) at San*2, and Stress Atavism (Severe) at San*3. Note the penalties from above apply to this temporary Disadvantage! At or beyond San*4, the character simply collapses into an incoherent, gibbering wreck and can no longer function until Mad is reduced below San*4. Madness is reduced the same way, and at the same rate, as Stress (H142).

Instead of reducing Madness slowly, however, a character may at any time opt to have a small mental "break," losing 1 San in exchange for reducing Mad by (prior to loss) San. This is often accompanied by a disturbing laugh as the character accepts the madness in his mind. Players of characters with reduced San are encouraged to behave erratically from time to time, but are by no means required to do so. A character who's San is below 10 should suffer from one (or more) of the results from the Madness Tables (H143-144), suffering from more effects with greater potency as San is reduced further, finally resulting in a San 0 character being fully catatonic. Optionally, such characters have a tenuous grasp on reality, and suffer a penalty to Influence rolls of (San-10). San recovers in the same way, and at the same rate, as Derangement (H142) is reduced. Note that the Madness Thresholds, above, are based on current San.

As an example, let's take our stalwart San 17 character from above. We'll call him Bob. An encounter with a wild bear that has been horribly reshaped and distorted by dark magic would normally call for a Fright Check at -2, so he takes 1d-1 Mad - the GM rolls a 3, for 2 Mad. Bob guns the creature down, and someone nearby comes running. Bob's relieved at the appearance of someone else, but suddenly the person pulls out a pistol and shoots him in the chest! Fortunately, he was wearing a concealed vest, and the bullet fails to penetrate, for another Fright Check at -2 (TS34); this time the GM rolls a 1, for no Mad. Bob shoves his shotgun into he assailant's face and pulls the trigger, ripping his skull to shreds. The close range shot means bits of brain and bone hit Bob in the face. The incredibly close range, horribly grisly death, and getting brain and bone in the face conspire to deal Bob a full 1d Mad - and the GM rolls a 6 (8 Mad total). Bob's now above San/4, so he's suffering a -1 penalty to various checks. He takes off running, hoping to find somewhere without mutated bears and crazy gunmen, and nearly runs right smack into a figure in a dark cloak. The figure lowers its cowl, revealing rubbery skin and innumerable writhing tentacles in place of a mouth. Bob screams, and the GM rolls 1d-3 Mad (human sized monster, +0 Fright Check), rolling a 4, for 1 Mad (9 Mad total). This is above San/2, so Bob's now at -2 to various checks. The illithid hits him with a mind blast, for a Sanity-Blasting 1d+2. The GM rolls a 1, for 3 Mad (12 Mad Total) and -1 San. He's right at San*3/4 now, but not beyond it, so he's still at only -2. He resists the Stunning effect of the mind blast and, with a shout, fires a full 3 shots from his shotgun into the creature. It stumbles back and falls, bleeding heavily, but begins a horrid chant in a forgotten language. The ground around Bob opens up, and zombies begin pouring out. That's normally a Fright Check at -7, but the heat of battle gives him a +5, so we've got another 1d-1 roll. The GM rolls a 6, for 5 Mad (17 Mad Total). This reaches and exceeds Bob's current San, so he gains Stress Atavism (Mild, 18) and is at -4. He needs to immediately roll against 14 to avoid Stress Atavism, and succeeds. Bob's mind cracks, and he starts laughing maniacally as he guns down the zombies surrounding him (he loses 1 San, putting him at 15 San, to reduce his Mad by 16, putting him at only 1 Mad and no penalties). His ammunition spent, he smashes in the last zombie's face with the stock of his shotgun, and walks up to the wounded illithid that's trying to climb to its feet. It hits him with another mind blast, but the heat of battle bonus reduces this to 1d-3, and the GM rolls a 5, for 2 Mad (total 3). "That all you got, you calamari f***!?" Bob yells as he bashes in the illithid's soft skull, crushing its brain.

Bob's alright, but fairly shaken. He makes it home and drinks some wine, eliminating the residual Mad. He relaxes the next day, trying to convince himself it was a nightmare, and is somewhat successful - his roll against Will succeeds, and he recovers 1 San. He repeats this the next day, but isn't quite as successful (fails the Will roll), but is more successful the day after that, eliminating the rest of his San damage. Bob's back to normal, if a bit more cautious, but he should be able to go back to living a normal life. Well, if it weren't for all those cultists plotting his death next door...

[Dark Archon]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Here's a basic concept, heavily influenced by "The Last Gasp." Feel free to modify as you see fit.

Sanity and Madness
...

I like your system, but do you see a way to introduce permanent mental disadvantages in this picture?

[Maz]

I use the following system for my horror/action -game.

Stress
(New rule. Normal Fear rules are still used, but only for “sudden horror” and certain supernatural powers)
The stress rules does not use "the rule of 14".

Stresspoints is a totally new attribute. It starts at 10 and can be bought up or down for 2 pts per level.
Much like HP or FP, the amount of SP lost effects you, only it’s your mentality which it affected not your physiology.

LOSING STRESSPOINTS
Whenever a stressful situation occurs you roll a Will check. If the check is failed you lose an SP. In addition you lose further SP determined by your margin of error. You lose 1 more SP per full 2 you fail by. So if you fail a roll by 5 you lose 1 SP as you fail, and then another 2 for the margin of error.
Different situations modify the roll, and therefore how much SP you are likely to lose:

It goes from +2 for mild stuff to -10 for world-shattering stuff.
Examples:

• +2 getting interrogated by CIA, finding a dead body, being forced to wait for a long time when in a hurry.
• +0 Seeing someone tortured, Loosing an important competition.
• -2 Being portrayed as a traitor by the media. Being in real imminent danger of death.
• -4 Accidentally killing an innocent. Finding a friends mutilated body.
• -6 Having to kill a friend. Dying and getting resurrected.

It goes up to -10, and these are jut a few examples. Advantages and especially disadvantages modify these. A callous person for instance would be less stressed about what happen to others. A Selfish person would be much more stressed out by being portrayed as a looser by the media.



EFFECT OF SP LOSS

Less than 1/3 SP You suffer a temporary -1 penalty to all Will- and selfcontrol rolls.

At 0 SP or less You suffer a temporary -2 penalty to all Will- and selfcontrol rolls. In addition for every further Stress you take you must roll another -unmodified- Will roll to see if you suffer a Nervous Breakdown.

At -1xSP you automatically suffer a Nervous breakdown.

At any time a critical failure results in a Nervous breakdown.


A Nervous breakdown is when your mind can't take anymore and you discharges a whole lot of stress; in rage, terror or fugue (depending on personality and the situation), losing your grip over sanity in the progress:
Rage: You go Berserk (as per the disad) attacking whatever caused the final breakdown, and once it is dead/destroyed you moves on attacking something else.
Terror: You flee in terror or humiliation from whatever caused the final breakdown.
Fugue: You are catatonic and do absolutely nothing. If you take damage you flee, as per Terror.

The breakdown last until the source of the breakdown is gone, but at least a number of minutes (or seconds in a life and death situation) equal to the amount of SP lost when the breakdown occurs, or as long as the GM sees fit. The more damaged you mind is, the longer it takes to snap out of it. You are not really aware of your surroundings as long as you suffer from your breakdown and even has to make a Perception checks to notice imminent danger.

Once the breakdown is over your SP is ‘healed’ up to its full level. That is, unless you were not able to act out as you wanted; if you were restrained, or there was nothing to smash and so on. If not able to act out, you only regain half of your lost SP!

In addition your SP max is lowered permanently by an amount depending on how low on SP you where when you snapped (see list). Alternatively, you may instead get a mental disad. The specific disad is determined by the GM together with the player, but should reflect the personality of the character and the situation that made them break. It could also just be a lowering of a self-control number of an existing disad. Or it might lead to an addiction if the break down was cause by a drug.

The SP reduction or disads point-value is determined by how mentally damaged the character was when breaking down:

Snapped at SP reduction	Mental disad.
Before going below 1/3 SP	-1	A -1 pts quirk
Below 1/3 SP		-2	Up to -4 pts disad. 
At 0 or less SP		-3	Up to -6 pts disad. 
At -1xSP 		-5	Up to -10 pts disad.

STRESS RELEASE
There are several ways to heal the mind, getting stress release. In most cases the release is automatic, that is you do not need to make any checks to regain SP.
Important: You can only regain SP from the same source once per day.

Examples of situations that heals 1 SP.
Completing an important assignment. Being shown as a winner by the media(1). Destroying at least 100% of CoL, worth of breakables in one orgy of violence. Having sex. Meditating for an hour(2). Being at a really great party. Spending a couple of hours indulging in a hobby without interruptions. Exercising for at least one hour. Spending at least 200% of CoL in one shopping spree. Meeting up with close friends or family you haven’t been with for a long time*. A two-hour session of therapy (costing at least $750, the therapist must succeed a Psychology roll modified by the amount of SP the character has lost from +0 to -2). Spending an hour and at least 20% of CoL pigging out on fattening or luxury food. Getting wasted, high, drunk and/or stoned.

Examples of situation that heals 2 SP.
Destroying at least 100% of CoL, worth of someone else’s breakables in one orgy of violence. Having sex with someone you genuinely love. Finally reaching a long term goal.

* Only once per month.
(1): Double for Proud or Egoistic
(2): Requires a Controlled breathing (meditation) roll

Again, disadvantages and the personality of the character will effect what they gain stress release from.

[Christopher R. Rice]

I created a pretty in depth system for my Patreon patrons. Links on my blog here and here, while diret links on my Patreon are here and here.

Overall it uses a system similiar to Stress and Derangement and combines it with Corruption-like mechanics and a few other odds and ends. Works out pretty well from what I've been told by people who use it.

[lvalero]

I created a pretty in depth system for my Patreon patrons. Links on my blog here and here, while diret links on my Patreon are here and here.

I don't know your system but I have a question.

Instead of using your system to model madness, can it be used to model slow corruption? For example, in my DF there are descendants of fairies, demons, dragons and angels that can use some "lineage" powers. However the more they use these powers the more "similar" of the "ancestry" they become.

I use plain corruption rules (Gurps Horror) to model that. (Yes, there is angelic corruption also!) But I wonder if your stress/derangement rules could be used for that end.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by lvalero

I don't know your system but I have a question.

Instead of using your system to model madness, can it be used to model slow corruption? For example, in my DF there are descendants of fairies, demons, dragons and angels that can use some "lineage" powers. However the more they use these powers the more "similar" of the "ancestry" they become.

I use plain corruption rules (Gurps Horror) to model that. (Yes, there is angelic corruption also!) But I wonder if your stress/derangement rules could be used for that end.

Yes. Absolutely. You'd need to twist some things around, but yes, it could be used like that.