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Old 07-26-2021, 04:30 PM   #11
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Main-gauche vs. Dagger

TBH, I think the root problem is the idea that 'parry' can only mean stopping hits. I don't use that mechanic in my games. Shields and parrying weapons are designed to block or deflect... denying the hit, not reduce damage from a successful one.
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Old 07-27-2021, 09:02 AM   #12
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Default Re: Main-gauche vs. Dagger

A shield deflection does both things. If the sword is deflected into air then your Shield Defend (t.m.) has stopped all damage. If the sword is deflected and still strikes you then you have reduced the damage.
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Old 07-27-2021, 04:54 PM   #13
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Default Re: Main-gauche vs. Dagger

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A shield deflection does both things. If the sword is deflected into air then your Shield Defend (t.m.) has stopped all damage. If the sword is deflected and still strikes you then you have reduced the damage.
I don't agree. Unless we're talking about a dagger attack, it is unlikely that a shield alone (even a tower shield) will stop all incoming damage. That's not how a shield works. They either block the strike entirely or they don't. At TFT's level of abstraction, a DX penalty is the better mechanic IMO, but that is a topic for another thread.
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Old 07-28-2021, 07:18 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
I don't agree. Unless we're talking about a dagger attack, it is unlikely that a shield alone (even a tower shield) will stop all incoming damage. That's not how a shield works. They either block the strike entirely or they don't. At TFT's level of abstraction, a DX penalty is the better mechanic IMO, but that is a topic for another thread.
I completely see where you're coming from. I've thought along a similar line myself, but in the end just didn't want to change a core mechanic.

Anyway, for what it's worth, one way to look at the TFT abstraction is that the attack option represents a series of attempted blows, and the final damage received reflects the sum of hits fully blocked, partially blocked, and unblocked.
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Old 07-28-2021, 07:31 AM   #15
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Default Re: Main-gauche vs. Dagger

Honestly, armor mostly works the same way, and in this sense - much as the rpg universe would hate to admit it - D&D, particularly 1E with its weapon vs. armor type table - is more realistic than runequest or TFT or Dragonquest or other games that have armor do damage reduction only. GURPs is probably the best treatment, as it mixes the two concepts.
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Old 07-28-2021, 06:52 PM   #16
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Default Re: Main-gauche vs. Dagger

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Honestly, armor mostly works the same way, and in this sense - much as the rpg universe would hate to admit it - D&D, particularly 1E with its weapon vs. armor type table - is more realistic than runequest or TFT or Dragonquest or other games that have armor do damage reduction only. GURPs is probably the best treatment, as it mixes the two concepts.
Yes, D&D's abstraction is more consistent with all factors feeding into a single AC rating, but I prefer TFT's approach (for armor, at least).
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Old 08-01-2021, 02:29 AM   #17
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Default Re: Main-gauche vs. Dagger

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Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
TBH, I think the root problem is the idea that 'parry' can only mean stopping hits. I don't use that mechanic in my games. Shields and parrying weapons are designed to block or deflect... denying the hit, not reduce damage from a successful one.
It's easy to get hung up on this distinction, but the TFT level of resolution is rough enough that it can just disappear anyway. My preferred example is that I am fighting an opponent that does 1d damage, and I have either (a) a shield that stops 1 point of damage or (b) a shield that protects only my most vital point, so it completely blocks a roll of 6 but has no effect on any other damage roll. These might sound like very different shields, but actually they're exactly equivalent in mechanical terms, with the same distribution of damage getting through. So sometimes worrying about how it works is effort misdirected.
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Old 08-02-2021, 04:53 PM   #18
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Default Re: Main-gauche vs. Dagger

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It's easy to get hung up on this distinction, but the TFT level of resolution is rough enough that it can just disappear anyway. My preferred example is that I am fighting an opponent that does 1d damage, and I have either (a) a shield that stops 1 point of damage or (b) a shield that protects only my most vital point, so it completely blocks a roll of 6 but has no effect on any other damage roll. These might sound like very different shields, but actually they're exactly equivalent in mechanical terms, with the same distribution of damage getting through. So sometimes worrying about how it works is effort misdirected.
I'm not sure that logic holds up when talking about the larger shields that provide significant cover of more/most vital points and heavy weapons that do 2, 3 or more dice damage. The 'hits stopped' mechanic will ultimately get overrun by TFT's escalating damage potential. DX penalties, on the other hand, remain viable much longer.

If we're going to continue debating different game design approaches for shields, however, we should probably start a new thread.
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Last edited by TippetsTX; 08-03-2021 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 08-04-2021, 06:54 AM   #19
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Default Re: Main-gauche vs. Dagger

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Honestly, armor mostly works the same way
I don't think that's entirely true, in fact it might not even be mostly true, at least as it applies to heavy armour. Comparing two paradigms:
  1. A knight fought until a lucky blow punched between his armour plates. The weapon didn't need to be particularly heavy or its wielder powerful: having the luck or accuracy to hit the gap was what mattered.
  2. A knight gradually accumulated small injuries until they collapsed. Light weapons were ineffective: to fight a knight you needed a powerful weapon.
Of the two it's my understanding that 2 was more accurate. Knights would accumulate so many small cuts that sometimes they'd bleed to death after the battle from blood loss, not having realised they needed to take off their armour and get the wounds staunched.

For lighter armours maybe the D&D model is better? I'm not sure.
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Old 08-04-2021, 06:56 AM   #20
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I'm not sure that logic holds up when talking about [...]
That's perhaps true. I just wanted to give an example of two mechanics that seemed very different and actually gave the same results. Sometimes the mechanic matters less than you might think.
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