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Old 08-22-2021, 08:03 AM   #31
Plane
 
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Default Re: [Powers / Psionics] Help with Uncontrollable

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
The issue is whether you are paralyzed by pseudo-epileptic seizures while your subconscious is throwing a tantrum or playing a prank.
Seizures sounds like being stunned (Do Nothing) while a Ready or Concentrate or Attack maneuver are far less limiting than that (unpenalized defenses, can retreat, can step, can use free actions)

Also consider how having Uncontrollable on something like Cutting Attack (Melee, ST-based) would work. How is strength used without physical gestures?

Does bring up an interesting consideration for attack maneuvers though: does the GM decide whether the power uses Defensive / normal / Committed / All-Out or might the player be permitted to choose?
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Old 08-22-2021, 09:51 AM   #32
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Default Re: [Powers / Psionics] Help with Uncontrollable

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
..
the character is under the control of the GM, not the player. Until the player makes a successful Will roll, he doesn't have any free actions or maneuvers to take for the character, the GM does.
The text does not say that. It says the power is not under the character's control, not that the character is under the control of the power. The extreme interpretation would impair numerous character concepts involving uncontrolled powers and the Limitation is certainly not priced for such a degree of trouble.
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Old 08-22-2021, 10:49 AM   #33
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Default Re: [Powers / Psionics] Help with Uncontrollable

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
The text does not say that. It says the power is not under the character's control, not that the character is under the control of the power. The extreme interpretation would impair numerous character concepts involving uncontrolled powers and the Limitation is certainly not priced for such a degree of trouble.
I suppose if one did not take compartmentalized mind to spare oneself the maneuver costs there could be some other options...

Like say for example you allow an Ally or Dependent or Enemy to use their maneuvers to activate the ability?

It's just clearly you should have some kind of character out there doing the actions. If it's literally just your subconscious then you're the only character available to pay those costs.

Someone who wants to make their own attacks while the ability uses their attacks might for example choose to do something like "All-Out Attack Double" (the rogue ability can only use ONE of the attacks, the PC can use the other) or buy Extra Attack?

I'm picturing someone who buys 10 different Innate Attacks (each with Uncontrollable) and gets 10 free attacks per second (one for each separate Uncontrollable ability) at various enemies while retaining complete maneuver control of his own.

That type of thing is dangerous to allies but not really much of a drawback if you have no allies around to endanger. You wouldn't have any reason to fight this with Will roll in all-out battles of you vs dozens of baddies.
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Old 08-22-2021, 11:47 AM   #34
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Default Re: [Powers / Psionics] Help with Uncontrollable

If we assume that an Uncontrollable attack focuses its attacks on enemies, then it would probably be too much of a benefit to allow it to attack "as a free action".

On the other hand, being compelled to stand and make attack rolls regardless of the tactical situation amounts to a form of suicide.

My solution would be to have the Uncontrollable Attack not target enemies. Instead, it focuses on light fixtures, structural supports, flammables, and so on. Its attacks, even when they tend to hinder the PC and his allies less than their opponents, definitely make life very interesting in the Chinese proverb sense- exactly what an "entity of a prankish or hostile nature" [Characters p.116] should be doing. Playing it like this, I think letting it attack without stealing the PC's turn should not be overpowering, and the balance feels about where it should be.
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Old 08-22-2021, 12:14 PM   #35
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Default Re: [Powers / Psionics] Help with Uncontrollable

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Originally Posted by ravenfish View Post
<snip>

My solution would be to have the Uncontrollable Attack not target enemies. Instead, it focuses on light fixtures, structural supports, flammables, and so on. Its attacks, even when they tend to hinder the PC and his allies less than their opponents, definitely make life very interesting in the Chinese proverb sense- exactly what an "entity of a prankish or hostile nature" [Characters p.116] should be doing. Playing it like this, I think letting it attack without stealing the PC's turn should not be overpowering, and the balance feels about where it should be.
Which would be fine for abilities which cannot inflict damage and therefore take the Limitation at the -10% level (B116).

However, the Uncontrollable Limitation (B116) also states that a harmful ability (which in context must mean an ability which can inflict damage) goes after obvious foes first, but only the character whose ability it is, is truly safe, and that for such destructive powers the Limitation is taken at the -30% level.

Part of the issue may be that people are conflating the -10% version of the Limitation with the -30% version. They are mutually exclusive, i.e. a non-damaging power can't take Uncontrollable as a -30% Limitation and a damaging power can't take Uncontrollable as a -10% Limitation.

A -30% Limitation would be expected to impact the use of the Power to a greater extent than a -10% Limitation.
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Old 08-22-2021, 12:36 PM   #36
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Default Re: [Powers / Psionics] Help with Uncontrollable

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Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
However, the Uncontrollable Limitation (B116) also states that a harmful ability (which in context must mean an ability which can inflict damage) goes after obvious foes first, but only the character whose ability it is, is truly safe, and that for such destructive powers the Limitation is taken at the -30% level.

I'm well aware of that, I'm merely pointing out that it isn't obliged to go after opponents in any tactically useful manner, and (both for balance and in accordance with its "prankish or hostile nature") probably shouldn't.


---


Ultimately, I think that, if the intent were "compels the character to spend all his actions making a given maneuver until he succeeds at a will roll," this would have been spelled out more clearly. "Takes over your ability", to me, pretty clearly implies "doesn't take over the rest of your character," and "will start attacking allies if control cannot be quickly regained" feels worth close to -30% without throwing "unable to do anything else" on top of it.

GURPS Powers also notes that, if Uncontrollable represents an actively malicious force rather than a merely random one, it might allow the user to appear to remain in control but subtly pervert his uses. If "must stand in place like a fool while blazing away" were actually a substantial portion of the limitation value, this wouldn't be a valid option.
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Old 08-22-2021, 01:51 PM   #37
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Default Re: [Powers / Psionics] Help with Uncontrollable

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Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice View Post
He's on vacation right now and we need to not bother him so he can get some much needed rest.
That's fair. It's clearly not urgent, so it the argument goes on that long, we can ask him after he gets back.
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Old 08-22-2021, 08:15 PM   #38
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Default Re: [Powers / Psionics] Help with Uncontrollable

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Originally Posted by ravenfish View Post
On the other hand, being compelled to stand and make attack rolls regardless of the tactical situation amounts to a form of suicide.
On further thought: there's no reason to think you would need to take a normal Attack maneuver.

If you wanted to run away via a Move maneuver perhaps you could instead opt to do a "Move and Attack", which is a pretty close match except some compromised defenses and chance of tripping, which would make sense if some uncontrollable power was shooting out of you and surprising you.

Abilities which require a Ready don't have as much flexibility in maneuver choice, but then you could reduce those to free actions using Reduced Time, so it's not a big deal. There's also been houseruled "Move and Ready" I think.

Same with Concentrate.

Let's actually think about how Warp + Uncontrollable would work:

Is it always done at -10 for being instant with no prep, or can the uncontrollable ability 'prep' to change this?

(similarly if you are blind, would it be inclined to do blind ports at another -5 ?)

Can the ability spend your FP to get a bonus to the roll?

If it's always -10 then more often than not you're just going to strain your ability and be at -5 for the next ten minutes, or else get a crit fail and end up wherever the GM wishes then burn out for 1d hours.
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Old 08-23-2021, 02:17 AM   #39
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Default Re: [Powers / Psionics] Help with Uncontrollable

I figured Uncontrollable was essentially like a psionicist's unintentional Poltergeist effect.

Pyrokinesis starts randomly putting your surroundings on fire when you lose control, including friends and that puddle of gasoline you happened to stand in. If enemies are around AND your attention is focused on them then most of the fire will be directed towards them.

Telekinesis might tear off the door you're trying to flee through, which is good, but it might also pull down a chandelier and tip over a book-case in a narrow corridor and temporarily trap you. If you're in a fight it might chuck a dining table against your opponent... but that might well have been the table your buddy was taking cover behind.

In either case, yes there are free actions, but the actions aren't yours, they belong to the GM, and they are largely supposed to be more trouble than they are worth.

The Player can't power-game this limitation because no matter how much the player states that they "focus on the evil vampire" the GM is the only one making decisions on what happens. "Sorry, your psychokinesis throws a cabinet out the 10th floor window [to the misfortune of anyone down there] instead, perhaps some suppressed irrational to escape the situation by jumping through the window?"

I think it is a neat limitation.
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Old 08-23-2021, 02:53 AM   #40
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Default Re: [Powers / Psionics] Help with Uncontrollable

I knew I'd seen this answer from Kromm somewhere before. It was a email Bruno sent out and got an answer from here.

In short, Uncontrollable does its own thing and does not occupy the character who has it.
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