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Old 10-05-2020, 06:36 AM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Herecine IQ

http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/faq/FAQ4-3.html#SS3.1.5
Quote:
IQ 0 means you're a rutabaga. Per p. B15, at IQ 0, you're mindless and unable to act without somebody possessing you and operating you via remote control. You need at least IQ 1 to have a self and be able to perceive and act at all, which includes grunting and making gestures.
F47 assigns IQ 0 to the Herecine, who appear to be able to make Attack maneuvers for Affliction/Binding/Grappling/Biting. Does this imply some entity is possessing them?

You need to use attack maneuvers to launch Emanation, I think it was only 3e which had an 'always on' version which would just constantly launch infinite attacks. Closest in 4e is probably Aura w/ Always On, but that normally requires contact (melee) unless you enhance it with Area Effect.

I guess another way it might be done is just by taking Persistant on an AE attack (innate attack or affliction, for example) and then getting enough Increased Duration to either go to permanent or at least the expected lifetime of the plant... you probably want some kind of way where the persistent attacking shuts down when the plant does. Not using Requires Concentrate or Requires Ready though, since the idea is to not require constant maneuvers.

Maybe something like Environmental (attack persists on targets only so long as original attacker remains in the emanation radius -??%). I think that's probably what they were aiming at using Aura in PU4.

I'm wondering how to explain this and if maybe GURPS Fantasy has some hints on how to represent IQ 0 creatures as more capable than the FAQ implies.

F161 hints at this with Magic based on HT:
Quote:
Any living thing, even a tree, may be capable of casting spells.
Nonsapient life forms will do so only by instinct,
and IQ 0 life forms only as their own physiological state dictates.
This idea of "dictated by physiological state" seems like we could represent stuff like venus fly traps (or fantasy versions like the herecine) doing a "grapple" or "attack" by getting crafty.

B15 "Nonsentient creatures cannot learn skills or have any purely mental traits." Perhaps we could give "Uncontrollable' and "Unconscious Only" to the attack capabilities of creatures like these? That way their lack of involuntary input does not matter, since you do not actually make attack maneuvers to use Uncontrollable abilities.

Plus since they are Will 0, they can never shut them off, so they'll just keep going. That seems like one way to do "IQ without IQ" in a sense.
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Old 10-06-2020, 09:09 AM   #2
Sam Baughn
 
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Default Re: Herecine IQ

IQ 0 entities can clearly do stuff when exposed to stimuli. Even normal plants move slowly according to light and other factors. A landmine, or even a simple mechanical trap, can attack someone who triggers it. I'd interpret 'unable to act' in a fairly narrow sense; you can't act of your own volition, but you can have pre-determined responses to certain events.
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Old 10-06-2020, 10:57 AM   #3
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Default Re: Herecine IQ

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
F47 assigns IQ 0 to the Herecine, who appear to be able to make Attack maneuvers for Affliction/Binding/Grappling/Biting. Does this imply some entity is possessing them?
It means they lack a self that can decide to act or not. I suppose if you are "playing one", you don't get to decide when or if you attack (or do anything else) the GM does.

If you insist on gameable consequences, I'd probably rule that any actions of IQ 0 things are utterly scripted, so if you've made a close study of these things, you know *exactly* how its attacks will happen, and get a big bonus to (or an automatic success for) Dodge. For a minimal approach, maybe allowing Physiology (Herecine) as a complementary roll for anything done in opposition to them?
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Old 10-06-2020, 01:21 PM   #4
Plane
 
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Default Re: Herecine IQ

One interesting thing, is if not for it being a purely mental trait, you could probably give "Reluctant Killer" (B148 Pacifism) to this plant, and it would barely hamper it:
1) there's no -4 to hit because you can't see faces (you are blind)

2) the -2 for hitting foes you can't with deadly attacks doesn't apply in close combat: and the Hereceine uses NON-deadly attacks (binding, grappling) at reach 1-2, it only uses deadly (biting) attacks after dragging them in close (it later says there's no penalty at all for hitting things you can't see like "blip on a radar" which seems distinctive from "attacked from behind". Maybe that refers to ENTIRE FOE, so even if you can't see opponent's face (they're behind you) they're still 'a person' to you if you can see their limbs reaching around you, for example.

3) there's not a penalty to try and kill things you don't perceive as people, and it's doubtful something IQ 0 necessarily even processes what a 'person' is (I wonder that about sub-sapient sentients too... is an IQ 1 reptile you make 'reluctant killer' unable to bite sapient 'people' accurately, but suffers no problems biting other sub-sapients? Do giant dragons even view us as 'recognizable people' or just specks?
Sounds like maybe Blind folk ought to get fewer points for reluctant killer (they already inherently avoid the triggers) ?

You should still get some because it's a mental disadvantage that follows you around (if you possess a body which can see, suddenly your sight can't be fully utilized due to your pacifism) but it feels like maybe you should have to buy a "Not Reluctant Killer (required disadvantage: blind -50%) [3] so that the net discount is only -2 ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Baughn View Post
normal plants move slowly according to light and other factors
Maybe that's somehow like the 'Drifting' limitation but for movement instead of attacks?

I did notice looking around that pg 71 of Zombies mentions:
The zombie is a vegetable, either reacting only reflexively or requiring possession by an animator
The issue here is how we mechanically distinguish what a "reflexive" action is.

Can an ATTACK be reflexive?

The closest I can think is switchable ongoing attacks, like if you buy Reflexive for Spines or on Aura, neither of which applies in this case.

If a reflex is something like "without taking a maneuver, I automatically use an attack to Bind/Grapple/Afflict/Bite in certain situations" then that's a mechanical advantage if a sapient character had it... probably at least a perk even if it's not broadly very useful?

One thing that comes to mind is treating this like "allies", either operating your "controls" or "possessing" you, and then the ally (your instinct, a purely mental ally) is able to "operate" you? IQ 0 doesn't prevent social advantages like ally so that seems like an interesting approach.

P52 "independent body parts" sort of does that... they are "separate entities" who operate allies when severed. None are assigned IQ... interestingly arms have full ST for punching, 1/2 ST for grappling, and basically -4 ST (-2 damage) for using weapons... they retain your combat skills so presumably they'd have the same IQ and other mental traits as well, kind of like a group possession or very limited Duplicate.

This also opens the door to defining stuff like "uncontrollable" since the "malicious IQ" could have varying stats. Maybe such 'Uncontrollable' entities have to be defined and if not statted are assumed to be 0-point allies (discounted via dependent or enemy?) ?

Uncontrollable is cheaper than 'granted by familiar' but that would be an interesting combo so that if you ever lose controllable, your familiar could just leave you, and familiars have an ally cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Baughn View Post
A landmine, or even a simple mechanical trap, can attack someone who triggers it.
I'm thinking that might functions something more like Spines / Aura (free action, automatic, can't will it not to happen) than an attack maneuver though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Baughn View Post
I'd interpret 'unable to act' in a fairly narrow sense; you can't act of your own volition, but you can have pre-determined responses to certain events.
Predetermined responses sounds like B150 Reprogrammable

One thing I just noticed is "if you are nonsentient (IQ 0)".

So I think the reason this is allowed is because it is not 'purely mental' which I guess must mean mental-normal. Reprogrammable is mental-exotic so the "exotic" aspect makes it "not purely mental" as best I can guess.

B124 "Bestial" is also mental-exotic so now I'm wondering if that's also compatible with IQ 0... but then I would expect something like the Herecine to have it.

I guess then I wonder how you end up following programming without IQ to do it.

IQ 0 says "cannot learn skills" on B15 so a lot of aspects of B125's Cannot Learn are probably included in there, which is important since you can't actually have that disadvantage since it IS purely mental.

That, besides forbidding spending points on skills, also prevents spending them on familiarities, techniques, extra IQ, mental advantages (not 'purely mental' so it would also bar buying mental-exotic or mental-supernatural, I think), and even DX. OTOH probably having IQ 0 doesn't prevent buying up DX, but not sure.

Since CL does not prevent STARTING with skills (see golem) or temporarily acquiring them (modular abilities) I guess in theory you could have skills from the base IQ 0, and would then just need to have a lot of points buying them up. Like for example you'd need 8 poins in an easy skill just to get it up to IQ+3 to make it usable at all in a non-modifier situation. I guess with Task Difficulty Modifiers up to +10, even IQ-7 defaults in some skills like Thaumatology could in theory be usable at effective skill 3 with a base of IQ 0?

They say Cannot Learn is good for "mindless" undead but since you need at least IQ 1 (sentience) to get it, it's weird calling it mindless. Maybe "mindless" is derogatory slang for IQ1-5 sub-sapient sentients?
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Old 10-06-2020, 01:37 PM   #5
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Default Re: Herecine IQ

A crossbow is obviously IQ 0. So is a crossbow positioned as a trap and triggered by a tripwire. A living or magical object that isn't any 'smarter' than that can certainly be given IQ 0.


It's usually supposed that modern computer technology is IQ 0, so arguably anything a real video game NPC could do (so far) is compatible with IQ 0...though that doesn't necessarily apply to the real-world analogues of the actions (which are abstracted away), only the decision-making processes.
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Old 10-06-2020, 01:39 PM   #6
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Herecine IQ

If you put your hand in a zombie's mouth, I expect it could reflexively bite.
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Old 10-06-2020, 01:57 PM   #7
Plane
 
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Default Re: Herecine IQ

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Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
It means they lack a self that can decide to act or not. I suppose if you are "playing one", you don't get to decide when or if you attack (or do anything else) the GM does.

If you insist on gameable consequences, I'd probably rule that any actions of IQ 0 things are utterly scripted, so if you've made a close study of these things, you know *exactly* how its attacks will happen, and get a big bonus to (or an automatic success for) Dodge. For a minimal approach, maybe allowing Physiology (Herecine) as a complementary roll for anything done in opposition to them?
Since B154 "Slave Mentality" is a "purely mental" trait, you need sentience (IQ1+) to get that disadvantage... but it sounds like it might be built into IQ 0.

Since you roll against IQ-8 to do anything, even with +10 TDM your maximum effective skill is 2, which is too low to attempt a roll, ergo can't do it.

Exceptions are "obeying a direct order" (which probably only applies if you are Reprogrammable?) and "established routine".

It's probably the latter one which would apply to venus fly traps and stuff. Like "try to wildly grapple in direction where I feel touch" and "try to eat what I have grappled" could be "established routine" for venus fly traps and Herecine?

This might be informed by a sense of smell, since they don't have the "No Smell/Taste" disadvantage, but are blind/deaf.

Probably something like "after I chew on something smelly for a while, if I don't tast anything, I spit it out" too? Like for example if I sprayed "smells like human food" chemicals on a giant bolder...

After a while of gnawing (worrying) the smelly thing, if no tasty blood spurts out, can 'routine' alone cause the tree to stop wasting time chewing the rock/metal when it has an instinct to get "Animal Flesh" to fulfill it's Dependency?

They have binding reach 1-2 and due to being SM+1 their "close combat" attacks (grapples, punches) would be reach 1.

Traditionally there doesn't seem to be a means by which you would transition from Bind>Grapple until GURPS Martial Arts, where I guess you could allow the tree to do AOA;Long to get +1 reach, and this would allow them to grapple what they used Bind against 2 yards away.

For pulling towards the mouth (which remains Reach C, per GURPS Zombies) also requires Martial Arts, since there's the "shoving people around" rule where you can forcibly cause them to take steps toward you.

Presumably if you have lifted someone up (technical grappling pickup technique) you could "step them" toward you without actually requiring them to touch the ground.

I think I remember reading something effective like 'what you can do at IQ 0' with breathing being one of them (ie you can breathe while unconscious, the autonomic nervous system)

Perhaps at IQ 0 you can still cough/sneeze/swallow/vomit since those are also autonomic responses? Or we can look more closely at the three "branches" (pun intended) of sympathetic / parasympathetic / enteric.

Sympathetic is 'fight of flight' and if it applies to IQ 0 creatures like the Herecine that might explain how it can take combat maneuvers?

For limited maneuver selection, B124 Berserk is an option I've seen (Zombies in particular) but since that's purely mental I don't think it's an option for IQ 0.

MA113 'Untrained Fighters' probably makes sense here. I think the problem with the Fear - Coin Toss option is you can only attack w/ Determined meaning you can't get the AOA:strong/long bonus. Requiring a point in a combat skill or combat reflexes to use AOA:strong/long bonus is kinda crippling. While I do like how that stops babies and the like from using AOA:strong, I think a house rule would be that if the foe is out of range (such as with Sessile, or if there's a big gap) that instead of AOA:determined, you will do AOA:long if that will bring them into range.

I'm not even sure if 'coin toss' should apply to fearless creatures (like IQ0) since they skip the fear check altogether...

Limited Maneuver Selection also makes sense to bar the new defensice/committed maneuvers and feint/deceptive/rapid attack options.

Defensive Grip is an interesting embargo, it makes me think about creatures and weapons... since B15 describes sapience as "the ability to use tools" it makes me wonder, even though technically you have weapon skills at default, can you even use weapons?

There's no technological skills... and aforementioned Bestial only prevents defaults in social/social ... Bestial is probably some component of Cannot Learn if I think about it... like maybe Cannot Learn is another -15 atop of built-in Bestial?

Z28 says you need to be "IQ 6+ and not Bestial" to use equipment, but given that this describes Apes (who are known to use tools) the term 'equipment' might refer to tech stuff and not wielding clubs?

Z58 seems to distingush zombie's bestial (despite having same point value) as being more intense than normal bestial because there is -4 to hit with weapons, almost like having Incompetence in all the weapon classes except I guess it doesn't give a -2 to parry as that would?

'hit with a weapon I'm already holding' might not translate to "recognize and pick up a weapon" though. B458 "Animal Training" doesn't even cover IQ 1 much less IQ 0, and B459 requires 60 days just to train IQ 2 (reptile) to come for food and not bite the hand that feeds it. The lack of days for IQ 1 to do this makes me think it can't even learn that, following the pattern of how it just seems impossible for lower-IQ species to attempt higher-IQ feats on the table.

It sounds like the Herecine (lacking Bad Grip or No Manipulators) could in theory wield weapons competently if it had the inclination (probably at -4 like zombies, but maybe give it 'incompetence' quirks points for ancient non-tech weapons?) but low IQ limits that inclination. I would expect it (or an IQ 0/1 zombie... probably 2/3/4 as well, using weapons sounds like IQ 5 monkeys minimum) to just instinctively drop a weapon put into it's "hand" as soon as it realized it was not food (probably via scent or taste, or perhaps via the sense of touch informing it it was hard/rigid and not flexible/soft and thus not 'animal flesh': such a thing might be confused by turtles or knights in platemail?)

B455 "attack in close combat by grappling and biting, rather than by punching or kicking." is an aspect of (non-human) apes (and probably zombies) which I'm wondering might be worth a quirk.

B160 "Vow" is a normal mental disadvantage (so IQ 0 can't have it, but perhaps B132 Divine Curse, is allowed since it's not 'pure': mental-supernatural) and B161 prices 'no edged weapons' as -10 major. So 'no weapons period' might be major (-15). I guess it should be worth more points than taking Incompetence on every single weapon class, right? -10 is definitely more than being incompetence in every edged weapon.
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Old 10-06-2020, 02:54 PM   #8
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Herecine IQ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Predetermined responses sounds like B150 Reprogrammable
Only if your program can be changed and there's a programmer around to do so (not to mention other details like having a communication mechanism shared with the set of programmers with which they can deliver new instructions). Having a predetermined set of responses doesn't imply an ability to change those responses "in the field".
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Old 10-06-2020, 06:46 PM   #9
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: Herecine IQ

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/faq/FAQ4-3.html#SS3.1.5


F47 assigns IQ 0 to the Herecine, who appear to be able to make Attack maneuvers for Affliction/Binding/Grappling/Biting. Does this imply some entity is possessing them?
No. It implies that its "attacks" are really traps. Which is to say the movements are entirely the product of touching it in the wrong place. The people it attacks are actually operating the controls that cause it to attack them.
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Old 10-06-2020, 10:28 PM   #10
Plane
 
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Default Re: Herecine IQ

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
No. It implies that its "attacks" are really traps. Which is to say the movements are entirely the product of touching it in the wrong place. The people it attacks are actually operating the controls that cause it to attack them.
Affliction (Emanation) happens prior to touching, it's what gives people gluttony and compels them to grab at the fruit.

It just says "the berries smell delicious" which sounds like the plant is just constantly topping up that emanation as needed using attack maneuvers.

The 'trigger' for that I guess could be "I smell animal flesh nearby". Notably despite IQ0/Will0 I'm just noticing they have Per 12 so it can probably smell pretty well.

It also seems like there are a lot of "wrong places" because "climbs into the inner branches" or "browses on berries" or "picks berries" all cause some mixture of Binding/Grappling attacks. Not really sure which ... I might need to check Technical Grappling to see whether Binding 12 or ST 20 arms are better at grappling.

ST 12 from binding is inferior, but that exhausts 1 FP per failure while break free attempts vs normal grappling do not...

Bindings would have DR 3 while it doesn't look like the Herecine has any DR at all (strange: it's wood, usually wood has a minimum DR of 1...)
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