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Old 04-10-2006, 08:53 PM   #11
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Weird Power Concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth
Jumper shouldn't have Acc (Demons). That belongs on the Afflication since you're giving the advantage to them. You can't take "only affects people like me" for points back on an advantage.
You're right. The original reason that the Jumper had it (and not the affliction) was that the power could be used on someone who had been possessed, sending the Demon away, but leaving them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth
Likewise, Unconsious and Uncontrollable would affect your ability to trigger it since you're in control of the advantage even though it's on another person.
That's arguable, but I think your right. However, as MrTim points out, what I want it for should make it an enhancement, not a limitation. Arguably, I think I should probably make it an "Always On" enhancement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth
Magic (-10%) seems like double dipping.
The Jumper is also magic. The affliction is magic, and it puts a magic power on the victim. If Jumper doesn't have "Magic" it isn't a magical ability (it's wild). I'd be happy to be shown that I'm wrong on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth
Jumper typically isn't a duration power (the obvious exception being projection to another plane leaving your body behind) so you don't need to extend the duration. He's home until he's able to portal back (be summoned?) again. The only reason I would include duration as a minimum amount of time the target needs to spend in that place.
That is precisely why it has an extended duration. The demon is trapped in his native dimension for one-year (I called it permanent, because a year is comfortably longer than any reasonable combat should last). Any attempts to leave (until the year has passed or the "curse" has been removed) tosses him back to where he's from. It's built-in expiration is one-year, but I figure there are more powerful demons that could do something about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmetahuman
Persistent is only legal for area effect attacks; it's not really appropriate (nor, once I figured out what you were doing, necessary imo).
(I keep forgetting that Persistent is only for AOEs.) I disagree that it's not appropriate. It may not be appropriate by the letter of the rule, but, I think it is appropriate in the general spirit of what Persistent represents. I could see putting Persistent on a Force Field Affliction (granting someone some DR) or on a Regeneration Affliction. Especially if these powers are mechanical in origin, or if they're part of an Alternate Ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmetahuman
The Accessibility really needs to be on the Affliction, not the Jumper - same with Magical. You can't use thhat twice. You do want *both* Unconscious Only and Uncontrollable, though, so that saves you points.
I disagree. I could have a cybernetic device that afflicts a biological advantage on someone. By not putting the limitation on Jumper, means it's not a magical ability anymore. But, again, I could be wrong, and if so, I would love to see where it says that (means I missed it and have some apologies to make).
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Old 04-10-2006, 09:50 PM   #12
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Default Re: Weird Power Concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Skarr
The Jumper is also magic. The affliction is magic, and it puts a magic power on the victim. If Jumper doesn't have "Magic" it isn't a magical ability (it's wild). I'd be happy to be shown that I'm wrong on that.
For this to be meaningful, you'ld need a way for the Jumper advantage to be negated where the Afflication isn't. The only obvious way that comes to mind ending the duration with countermeasures, but that's already costed into Permanent +150%.

What countermeasures can the demon exploit to make it worth -10%?
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Old 04-10-2006, 10:43 PM   #13
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Default Re: Weird Power Concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth
For this to be meaningful, you'ld need a way for the Jumper advantage to be negated where the Afflication isn't. The only obvious way that comes to mind ending the duration with countermeasures, but that's already costed into Permanent +150%.

What countermeasures can the demon exploit to make it worth -10%?
Well, specifically, they could jump to a world where Magic doesn't work (lots of worlds). How they get there is a matter for the GM to figure out. However, as I said, the built-in escape clause was 1 year, we all know that nothing is permanent. Other ideas: A nice anti-magic field (the GM doesn't consider Demons any more magical than Angels, frogs or humans; magic isn't required, just helpful) would render it temporarily useless. A powerful affliction-removing heal. A power that renders magic moot. A power that absorbs magical powers (heh, didn't see that coming). A powerful dispel. Becoming human. (I don't want to give my GM too many more ideas that he already has!)

Once granted, the "advantage" is still magical as is the affliction. It's not necessary for them both to fall into the same category, although it is probably expected.

Last edited by Mark Skarr; 04-10-2006 at 10:45 PM. Reason: too many of the same word. Oops.
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Old 04-11-2006, 07:30 AM   #14
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Default Re: Weird Power Concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Skarr
Well, specifically, they could jump to a world where Magic doesn't work (lots of worlds). How they get there is a matter for the GM to figure out. However, as I said, the built-in escape clause was 1 year, we all know that nothing is permanent. Other ideas: A nice anti-magic field (the GM doesn't consider Demons any more magical than Angels, frogs or humans; magic isn't required, just helpful) would render it temporarily useless. A powerful affliction-removing heal. A power that renders magic moot. A power that absorbs magical powers (heh, didn't see that coming). A powerful dispel. Becoming human. (I don't want to give my GM too many more ideas that he already has!)
So in addition to the 1 year escape clause, there are places on the demon's home plane where it can be negated (dispel, affliction) or just doesn't work (no mana zone) to prevent him from jumping back?

Quote:
Once granted, the "advantage" is still magical as is the affliction. It's not necessary for them both to fall into the same category, although it is probably expected.
Not really... The game mechanic is that you're giving an advantage that causes the demon to jump home. The in game effect is that you want to banish a demon for at least a year.

As a GM, I'ld expect the Afflication to have a source if your powers normally do. Applying it to the effect implies countermeasures work even after the power is used successfully.
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Old 04-11-2006, 11:47 AM   #15
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Default Re: Weird Power Concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Skarr
(I keep forgetting that Persistent is only for AOEs.) I disagree that it's not appropriate. It may not be appropriate by the letter of the rule, but, I think it is appropriate in the general spirit of what Persistent represents. I could see putting Persistent on a Force Field Affliction (granting someone some DR) or on a Regeneration Affliction. Especially if these powers are mechanical in origin, or if they're part of an Alternate Ability.
Nah, Affliction: regen or Affliction: DR (FF) might need extended duration, but they're intrinsically persistent - they last one minute per margin of success (or failure, for attacks). It's only the "instant effect" afflictions (warp, jumper; maybe serendipity or luck... actually, it might just be the instantaneous movement powers) that we believe change the nature of affliction from an ongoing effect to an instant one. Since affliction is the thing to use to exoteleport, I don't think affliction: warp should give you the ability to *keep* exoteleporting the subject every second for a minute or more. That doesn't seem to be the way it's done in the books, at least.

If it is just those two powers, though, the exception should probably have been spelled out.

If jumper does turn a usually "persistent" power into an instant one, and you really really have to do this your way, then yes, I guess it would be appropriate to add persistent to "change the affliction back". I'd still rather see it done with negated advantage or a specialized static (good call, MrTim), though. But I ain't your GM, and your way is clever.

Last edited by transmetahuman; 04-11-2006 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 04-11-2006, 12:17 PM   #16
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Default Re: Weird Power Concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth
So in addition to the 1 year escape clause, there are places on the demon's home plane where it can be negated (dispel, affliction) or just doesn't work (no mana zone) to prevent him from jumping back?
That would be up to the GM. However, the power can't trigger until the demon is in another world. And if the demon travels to a world where magic doesn't work, then the "curse" wouldn't work. But yes, there are other ways "out" of the "curse." The only reason it was bought with Permanent +150% was because I wanted it to last for one year. And, since the curse is not "mana depdenant" the functional mana zone is superfulous, only if magic can work or not. However, you may have meant "No Mana Zone" as a place where magic doesn't work in general, not just a lack of Mana (Mana plays no part in this campaign, spells are built as powers).

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth
Not really... The game mechanic is that you're giving an advantage that causes the demon to jump home. The in game effect is that you want to banish a demon for at least a year.
And they are both magical. They are independently magical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth
As a GM, I'ld expect the Afflication to have a source if your powers normally do. Applying it to the effect implies countermeasures work even after the power is used successfully.
As I said, it's probably expected, but under no circumstances is it mandatory. I could have a technological device that afflicts a biological advantage. Or vice versa. However, the "advantage" is also magical. Since it is paid for based on it's cost as if you would buy it, it would have the same source because, once granted, it is independent of the Affliction. And if that advantage is limited by the same rules, it should get the point break.

This is largely academic. My GM has said that he can't imagine why the granted advantage wouldn't have "magical." However, I think this is an important discussion that should have some resolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmetahuman
Nah, Affliction: regen or Affliction: DR (FF) might need extended duration, but they're intrinsically persistent - they last one minute per margin of success (or failure, for attacks). It's only the "instant effect" afflictions (warp, jumper; maybe serendipity or luck... actually, it might just be the instantaneous movement powers) that we believe change the nature of affliction from an ongoing effect to an instant one.
I guess, the reason I always fall back on Persistent is because it's mandatory for "wall." And with "Wall" you're taking an instant power (an Innate attack) and making it . . . um, persistent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmetahuman
Since affliction is the thing to use to exoteleport, I don't think affliction: warp should give you the ability to *keep* exoteleporting the subject every second for a minute or more. That doesn't seem to be the way it's done in the books, at least.
Exactly, but that is the effect I'm trying to get. I want the jumper power to stay attached to the victim for one year (baring any interference).

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmetahuman
If jumper does turn a usually "persistent" power into an instant one, and you really really have to do this your way, then yes, I guess it would be appropriate to add persistent to "change the affliction back". I'd still rather see it done with negated advantage or a specialized static (good call, MrTim), though. But I ain't your GM, and your way is clever.
While I like the static idea, it's not quite what I want the effect to be. I want them to be able to jump to another world, then get catapulted back home. It doesn't just fail: they may get summoned for any reason, but they can't stay long enough to do anything. Keeps others from using the demon.
And paying for 1 second cyclic with 31,557,600 cycles is a bit much on the cost side. Makes it more expensive than the vastly-overcosted Hero version.
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Old 04-11-2006, 12:38 PM   #17
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Default Re: Weird Power Concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Skarr
That would be up to the GM. However, the power can't trigger until the demon is in another world. And if the demon travels to a world where magic doesn't work, then the "curse" wouldn't work. But yes, there are other ways "out" of the "curse." The only reason it was bought with Permanent +150% was because I wanted it to last for one year. And, since the curse is not "mana depdenant" the functional mana zone is superfulous, only if magic can work or not. However, you may have meant "No Mana Zone" as a place where magic doesn't work in general, not just a lack of Mana (Mana plays no part in this campaign, spells are built as powers).

And they are both magical. They are independently magical.

As I said, it's probably expected, but under no circumstances is it mandatory. I could have a technological device that afflicts a biological advantage. Or vice versa. However, the "advantage" is also magical. Since it is paid for based on it's cost as if you would buy it, it would have the same source because, once granted, it is independent of the Affliction. And if that advantage is limited by the same rules, it should get the point break.

This is largely academic. My GM has said that he can't imagine why the granted advantage wouldn't have "magical." However, I think this is an important discussion that should have some resolution.

I guess, the reason I always fall back on Persistent is because it's mandatory for "wall." And with "Wall" you're taking an instant power (an Innate attack) and making it . . . um, persistent.

Exactly, but that is the effect I'm trying to get. I want the jumper power to stay attached to the victim for one year (baring any interference).

While I like the static idea, it's not quite what I want the effect to be. I want them to be able to jump to another world, then get catapulted back home. It doesn't just fail: they may get summoned for any reason, but they can't stay long enough to do anything. Keeps others from using the demon.
And paying for 1 second cyclic with 31,557,600 cycles is a bit much on the cost side. Makes it more expensive than the vastly-overcosted Hero version.
Okay, like I said, I saw what you were trying to do and I think it's clever; since there arre no rules for making affliction: warp or jumper instant, I don't see why you can't use Persistent to change it back, as a houses rule for this specific effect. The question becomes how to price an Unconscious Uncontrollable effect that works to your benefit (Always On doesn't work that way, and besides, it's a limitation too). Limitations on advantages-used-as-attacks are weird (since you mentioned Hero, I guess you'ere familiar with the rules they address this with), and GURPS doesn't give us anything to work with. The only thing I can think of is the obvious "flip the sign", and make the -50% in limitations become a +50% enhancement. But that's totally arbitrary.

I do see where you're coming from with the double dipping on the "Magical" limitation; I might allow it.
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Old 04-11-2006, 12:50 PM   #18
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Default Re: Weird Power Concept

A really easy way to model this power would be to use the rules for banishment from powers page 118. Basically, the difference between flat out killing with an affliction, ie heart attack, and banishing for a year isn't that huge. So, just make it an affliction with Banishment +300% tacked on. If you're game defines banishment as being less than permanent, groovy, the net effect is still removing them from play and only extraordinary measures can return them, so, the +300% stands. Also, I'd call it a year and a day, just to keep it in line with myth :)

So,
Affliction
Banishment +300%
Magical -10%
Demons only -30% (assuming demonic thingys make up 19-31% of your foes)
add on malediction at whatever range level you want
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Old 04-11-2006, 12:55 PM   #19
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Weird Power Concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmetahuman
Okay, like I said, I saw what you were trying to do and I think it's clever; since there arre no rules for making affliction: warp or jumper instant, I don't see why you can't use Persistent to change it back, as a houses rule for this specific effect. The question becomes how to price an Unconscious Uncontrollable effect that works to your benefit (Always On doesn't work that way, and besides, it's a limitation too). Limitations on advantages-used-as-attacks are weird (since you mentioned Hero, I guess you'ere familiar with the rules they address this with), and GURPS doesn't give us anything to work with. The only thing I can think of is the obvious "flip the sign", and make the -50% in limitations become a +50% enhancement. But that's totally arbitrary.
Somewhere, I remember seeing that if it's -10% in limitations it's a +20% enhancement. I don't remember where it is, but I'll have to look for it.
Technically, they're still both limitations. They just happen to be limitations that work in the player's favor.
And, oh yes, having to buy Extra-Dimensional Movement (Related group of dimensions, any location) with Ranged, Safe-Blind, Usable as Attack, based on ECV and many other advantages . . . the active cost was something like 350, with a real cost of nearly 100. Not to mention how much I knew I was going to have to boost the character's Ego just to be able to use it on Demons. Mind-numblingly expensive power for a game where demons are a rare enemy type (in the game she was being made for demons weren't very common).

Quote:
Originally Posted by transmetahuman
I do see where you're coming from with the double dipping on the "Magical" limitation; I might allow it.
Okay, good. It was clearer that it sounded to me.
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Old 04-11-2006, 01:04 PM   #20
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Default Re: Weird Power Concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnordianslip
A really easy way to model this power would be to use the rules for banishment from powers page 118. Basically, the difference between flat out killing with an affliction, ie heart attack, and banishing for a year isn't that huge. So, just make it an affliction with Banishment +300% tacked on. If you're game defines banishment as being less than permanent, groovy, the net effect is still removing them from play and only extraordinary measures can return them, so, the +300% stands. *(snip)*
So,
Affliction
Banishment +300%
Magical -10%
Demons only -30% (assuming demonic thingys make up 19-31% of your foes)
add on malediction at whatever range level you want
I'll take a look at that. It looks like it might be best. (And the GM gave me the limitation cost for the Demons).
But, for this power I'd do:
Affliction (61 pts)
-Malediction 3 (+200%)
-Banishment (+300%)
-Reliable 10 (+50%)
-Magical (-10%)
-Accessability: Demons Only (-30%)
The GM liked the Reliable, made it possible for the character to banish powerful demons (which was part of the character's power), even though sometimes it's a close struggle. As I've said before I think that +5% is a bit skimpy on the cost for increasing the, um, reliability of the attack, but the GM said it was fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnordianslip
Also, I'd call it a year and a day, just to keep it in line with myth :)
Actually, it was set to one year, knowing that when the demons figured it out, they'd wait a year and a day. It was a subtle joke aimed at the demons.
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