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Old 06-30-2021, 01:17 AM   #31
Tymathee
 
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Default Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet

Also, we need to take into consideration Oswald's Dead Broke Wealth level. He's going to need to sweet talk the party's designated Mr. Money Bags if he's even going to have the cash on hand to fund his magical serial killing endeavors, since DF's variation on the Wealth traits dictate your ability to sell off loot. Any loot he's going to try and sell... won't have any value, unless he hands it over to Mr. Money Bags to sell for him.

"I don't know, Oswald... I'm just not sure if I'm comfortable with you murdering innocent villagers for the sake of more power!"

You could argue that players will want what's in the best interests for their fellow player's characters, but anecdotally I've certainly played in games where the party can feud over some petty drama. What greater way to get back at someone then to hold their character advancement hostage?
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Old 06-30-2021, 12:34 PM   #32
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Default Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet

While my Designer's Notes says I wrote much of the character up "months ago", it was really more like shortly after the pandemic started I believe. Oswald became a passion project for me to take my mind off the stress of life and its pressures. He's been in development for quite a while, and I really, really like him. So much so my Divinity: Original Sin II character is based on him, and I've taken up penciling, inking, and coloring a picture of him (my skill seems best for emulating that old-school RPG art feel... which I adore!).

I'm thankful for all the replies thus far, it's really made me think real hard about the under the hood bits of what makes Oswald what he is on paper and who he is as a character. Thank you!

Last edited by Tymathee; 07-01-2021 at 03:04 AM.
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Old 07-01-2021, 03:34 AM   #33
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Default Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet

So, I get that it's in my best interests to balance the character as appropriate. In a way getting a character into a campaign is like making successful use of your own skill at diplomacy. Compromises must be made sometimes.

I'm not likely to drop the -80% on Magery, and for good reason. Wizards, right out of the gate, get a Power Item that they can upgrade/replace for higher value to accumulate a large reserve of energy... all by doing the primary goal of dungeon crawling, that of bashing monster brains in and taking their cool loot which readily provides Wizards with the means of accumulating the value for a high reserve of energy for their Power Item. All without spending a single character point on something you'd normally would be required to pay for in a actual Energy Reserve. In theory that seems way too good, but it is thematically appropriate to the spirit of DF who has ubiquitous cinematic action through things like Heroic Archer and Weapon Master.

Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) may be more deserving of harsher scrutiny however.

I've already identified "One Style Only" as being roughly equivalent to "One College Only", -40%, and have swapped that out for the total of -40% in Limitations as previously detailed in this thread.

Celjabba astutely pointed out that the 1 magic perk to 20 spells cap could be interpreted to roughly translate to a Pact Limitation, -20%.

With that in mind, "Cannot Share or Transfer Energy" might then work out to about -7%.

-40% + -20% + -7% = -67%. Apply that to a regular level of Energy Reserve and you have it valued at [0.99], or rather [1].

As of currently Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) is lacking that additional -20%. Given it is fluffed as "Evil magical energy", I'll have to brainstorm options that'll add up to that -20%.
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Old 07-01-2021, 07:57 AM   #34
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Default Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tymathee View Post
I'm not likely to drop the -80% on Magery, and for good reason. Wizards, right out of the gate, get a Power Item that they can upgrade/replace for higher value to accumulate a large reserve of energy... all by doing the primary goal of dungeon crawling, that of bashing monster brains in and taking their cool loot which readily provides Wizards with the means of accumulating the value for a high reserve of energy for their Power Item. All without spending a single character point on something you'd normally would be required to pay for in a actual Energy Reserve. In theory that seems way too good, but it is thematically appropriate to the spirit of DF who has ubiquitous cinematic action through things like Heroic Archer and Weapon Master.

Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) may be more deserving of harsher scrutiny however.

I've already identified "One Style Only" as being roughly equivalent to "One College Only", -40%, and have swapped that out for the total of -40% in Limitations as previously detailed in this thread.

Celjabba astutely pointed out that the 1 magic perk to 20 spells cap could be interpreted to roughly translate to a Pact Limitation, -20%.

With that in mind, "Cannot Share or Transfer Energy" might then work out to about -7%.

-40% + -20% + -7% = -67%. Apply that to a regular level of Energy Reserve and you have it valued at [0.99], or rather [1].

As of currently Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic) is lacking that additional -20%. Given it is fluffed as "Evil magical energy", I'll have to brainstorm options that'll add up to that -20%.
Magery 6 for [17] looks like a major point crock to me, as does the Energy Reserve you have here.

I'm not really following your rationalization for the limitations you're using, but in any case, Magery 6 is a +6 to every spell on your list - and your spell list doesn't look as though it's limited in any way - and on page 23 of Thaumatology, as has been pointed out, "Can't Use External Energy" is worth only -15%.

If you don't have normal FP, then I would say you should have to buy a version of Unhealing, totally unrelated to Magery. Use those points to buy your energy reserve. I don't think it's legit that Magery should have specialized limitations based on ... a character's wealth level or how he might spend earned CP in the future, or whatever.
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Old 07-01-2021, 09:46 AM   #35
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Default Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
Magery 6 for [17] looks like a major point crock to me, as does the Energy Reserve you have here.

I'm not really following your rationalization for the limitations you're using, but in any case, Magery 6 is a +6 to every spell on your list - and your spell list doesn't look as though it's limited in any way - and on page 23 of Thaumatology, as has been pointed out, "Can't Use External Energy" is worth only -15%.

If you don't have normal FP, then I would say you should have to buy a version of Unhealing, totally unrelated to Magery. Use those points to buy your energy reserve. I don't think it's legit that Magery should have specialized limitations based on ... a character's wealth level or how he might spend earned CP in the future, or whatever.
*deep inhale, then a slow exhale*

Okay, let me rehash the previous discussion points made in this thread already.

-80% on Magery restricts its usage to a very limited in functionality form of energy, Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic). Can't Use External Energy limits you to internal energy, which may include HP burning, or alternative forms of Energy Reserve if he were to purchase that instead of LER (BM) during play. It forbids the usage of Paut (I'm certain Paut predates ER, but a contemporary reimagining of it would obviously include magical ER restoration), etcetera. Oswald doesn't have those options, nor will he have those options to acquire in play with points. He also won't have access to the cinematic Power Item rules for DF either, as already noted.

DF assumes high ubiquity of external energy sources. The Ye Olde Magic Shoppe that's likely in any given Town will carry a supply of Paut and healing potions, considering the source material that inspired the DF line. Since DF acknowledges that there's a high amount NPCs in the vaguely implied kitchen-sink setting that are totally built with the templates, there are other Wizards running around likely with their own Power Items of varying value, many them likely of great value and equally high reserves of energy.

With all of those considerations in mind, as noted under Can't Use External Energy permits the modifier to be adjusted according to how ubiquitous external energy sources are. Nothing is more ubiquitous than being able to literally take any form of high value treasure like a fancy scepter or jewel encrusted medallion to Town to the local temple/guild and paying a very small sum of money to store very possibly a large amount of energy in it.

The spell list was made with Kromm's Wizardry Refined in mind, that rebalances spell prerequisite chains and effectively erratas certain spell effects to be more appropriate for DF. I've also intentionally avoided the most obscenely powerful spell combinations available to Wizards in GURPS Magic. I'm willfully gatekeeping the most broken combos from myself, or at least holding them off till the GM permits them to be learned at a later point in whatever campaign Oswald finds himself in.

I think I summarized things well enough.
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Old 07-01-2021, 09:54 AM   #36
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Default Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tymathee View Post
*deep inhale, then a slow exhale*

Okay, let me rehash the previous discussion points made in this thread already.

-80% on Magery restricts its usage to a very limited in functionality form of energy, Limited Energy Reserve (Black Magic). Can't Use External Energy limits you to internal energy, which may include HP burning, or alternative forms of Energy Reserve if he were to purchase that instead of LER (BM) during play. It forbids the usage of Paut (I'm certain Paut predates ER, but a contemporary reimagining of it would obviously include magical ER restoration), etcetera. Oswald doesn't have those options, nor will he have those options to acquire in play with points. He also won't have access to the cinematic Power Item rules for DF either, as already noted.
So, by this logic, if you added, for example, the ST-Based enhancement to an Innate Attack, that enhancement should be worth less if your character chooses to have a low ST score? Of if you have a limitation "Requires Special Ingredients", then you should increase the value of that limitation if your character is also Dead Broke?

I don't think it should work this way. But if you can get a GM to go for Magery 6 for [17], then more power to you.
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Old 07-01-2021, 10:04 AM   #37
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Default Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
So, by this logic, if you added, for example, the ST-Based enhancement to an Innate Attack, that enhancement should be worth less if your character chooses to have a low ST score? Of if you have a limitation "Requires Special Ingredients", then you should increase the value of that limitation if your character is also Dead Broke?

I don't think it should work this way. But if you can get a GM to go for Magery 6 for [17], then more power to you.
*yet another deep sigh*

Quote:
Originally Posted by GURPS Thaumatology, Can't Use External Energy, pg. 23
If the campaign makes heavy use of external energy sources – for example, if large Powerstones are easily available or wizards frequently cast Draw Power on high-tech electrical supplies – the GM may wish to increase the limitation value.
Your logic, like previous posters, directly contradicts the RAW. The modifier, -80%, takes into consideration that it's essentially a much further restricted form of Can't Use External Energy as well as taking into consideration of the assumptions that DF makes.

Dead Broke wasn't taken into consideration for this at all. A lich can't just walk into any Town and buy whatever, he needs some sort of practical or illusionary disguise and possibly something to hide his aura as well. It coincidently also hinders his ability to acquire further levels of Magery and/or LER (BM).
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Old 07-01-2021, 10:13 AM   #38
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Default Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet

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Originally Posted by Balor Patch View Post
If I was the GM I'd say "By the Realm of the Dead and all the Hells, no!"
Your game, your rules. But, to me, it doesn't sound much like the game other people are playing.
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Old 07-01-2021, 10:29 AM   #39
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Default Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet

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Your game, your rules. But, to me, it doesn't sound much like the game other people are playing.
Frankly, I'm tired of being unfairly patronized. Please refrain from such comments.

As I've previously detailed in, summarized in brief:

In order to acquire LER (BM) or Magery with the associated Limitation in play, the character must acquire ritual trappings (minimum of $500 for LER (BM) and minimum of $1000 for Magery) and conduct a ritualistic act of significant Evil.

For example of acquiring an additional level of LER (BM), Oswald has somehow obtained some black market unholy ceremonial candles, expensive high art chalk, and bought a virgin sacrifice from some orc slavers that he'll drive a glimmering crimson dagger into. He's organized a time and place to perform the heinous ritual, and has either enlisted the help of his adventuring companions to conduct it or has hired some willing hirelings to assist. He draws the unholy magic circle, lights the ceremonial candles, and has had assistance in tying down the victim within the confines of the circle. He chants some convincing Evil words of power, then drives the blade into the sacrifice killing them. A character point is then spent to raise the level of LER (BM). There's a emphasis on the nuance of the roleplaying on this (it must appease the forces of Evil), and each batch of supplies is unique to each ritualistic act of Evil, so no reusing old ritual trappings. Magery with the associated modifier follows the same scheme.

This essentially is a refluffed interpretation of the training expenses rules detailed in the third DF supplement.

I'll also once again restate that his Magery is capped at a level a regular Wizard can rightfully acquire during character generation before even consulting the Power-Ups supplement, and he also is not working with the same quality or amount of energy a regular Wizard starts with.

Last edited by Tymathee; 07-01-2021 at 10:32 AM. Reason: Additional comment in regards to training expenses.
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Old 07-01-2021, 10:41 AM   #40
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Default Re: [DF] Lich PCs in DF - Oswald the Violet

Traits are not priced on how difficult it would be to get higher levels. The traits you do have are not priced according to the traits you don't have. For example, you don't get a discount on the DX if there's a racial limit on DX. And I don't think traits should be discounted because you have a higher training expense or whatever than someone else. That sounds like a feature to me.

From Basic 261:

"A 'taboo trait' is an attribute level, advantage, disadvantage, or skill that is off-limits to members of the race. This, too, is worth 0 points. Normally, only mundane traits are labeled 'taboo,' as exotic or supernatural traits require the GM’s permission in any case."

I'm sorry if you feel patronized, so I'll let it go with that.
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