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Old 10-25-2012, 11:35 AM   #1
Trainik
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Evanston, IL
Default Dealing with really high influence skills?

Hey everyone,

I'm running a campaign that focuses on social interaction and town management. Long story short, the players are in charge of a small, post-apocalyptic town, and they have to do things like establish a government, work out logistics, laws, diplomacy, etc. A fair amount of debating with each other and the NPCs.

So far it's a lot of fun, but I'm running into problems with players having what seem to me to be crazy-high influence skills. Since reaction rolls a are quick contest against Will, if you have 18 Diplomacy, you'll usually win vs. people with the usual 10-12 Will scores. This makes it way too easy to convince the townspeople to support your candidate, or to side with you in a power struggle. Add to this a 16-18 in Public Speaking, and they're pretty much unstoppable vs. average NPCs.

I know that they are supposed to be good at it, they spent the points after all, but something feels wrong about it. They don't really have any challenges socially. Are there modifiers I should be taking into account? Should I be having equally talented NPCs making opposing speeches? I add modifiers if they're trying to propose something unpopular, but the modifiers have to be really hefty to make much difference.

I figure I must be doing something wrong, and I'd love any help, thanks!
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:43 AM   #2
Fez
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Default Re: Dealing with really high influence skills?

I do not know if there are any rules that will help you, but are you using the Social Engineering rules?

This is a common problem in many RPGs that I've played - social skills are undervalued or sometimes undertested (Shadowrun 4th Edition, I'm looking at you) and allow for impossibly high bonuses without an appropriate level of situational penalties.
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:45 AM   #3
Trainik
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Evanston, IL
Default Re: Dealing with really high influence skills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fez View Post
I do not know if there are any rules that will help you, but are you using the Social Engineering rules?
I own them, but I'm not using them at the moment. I read them, and they seem a little complicated, especially for my group, who prefer quick-and-dirty rolls rather than waiting for me to figure things out. However, I'll take another look at them, thanks!
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:47 AM   #4
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Default Re: Dealing with really high influence skills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainik View Post
I'm running a campaign that focuses on social interaction and town management. Long story short, the players are in charge of a small, post-apocalyptic town, and they have to do things like establish a government, work out logistics, laws, diplomacy, etc. A fair amount of debating with each other and the NPCs.

So far it's a lot of fun, but I'm running into problems with players having what seem to me to be crazy-high influence skills. Since reaction rolls a are quick contest against Will, if you have 18 Diplomacy, you'll usually win vs. people with the usual 10-12 Will scores. This makes it way too easy to convince the townspeople to support your candidate, or to side with you in a power struggle. Add to this a 16-18 in Public Speaking, and they're pretty much unstoppable vs. average NPCs.

I know that they are supposed to be good at it, they spent the points after all, but something feels wrong about it. They don't really have any challenges socially. Are there modifiers I should be taking into account? Should I be having equally talented NPCs making opposing speeches? I add modifiers if they're trying to propose something unpopular, but the modifiers have to be really hefty to make much difference.

I figure I must be doing something wrong, and I'd love any help, thanks!
If you're using the standard rules, you need to bear in mind that a normal Influence roll produces only a Good reaction if it succeeds. (The exception is Sex Appeal, which produces a Very Good reaction.) That is, there is a limit to how much you can do by just studying how to get people to cooperate. For what that limit is, study the reaction tables (including the expanded ones in Social Engineering, if you have that) and notice the effects of a Very Good or Excellent reaction. Those are the things your PCs can't do. Now come up with tasks that require that level of success.

For example, and working from the Basic Set, on Loyalty, a Good reaction means the NPC likes the PCs or the job, and is loyal, works hard, and accepts reasonable hazards that the PCs share. But a Very Good reaction gets the NPC to put the PCs' lives ahead of their own and to risk their life if necessary; and an Excellent reaction gets an even stronger commitment. So if the PCs want to lead soldiers, Influence skills are good enough, but if they want to recruit fanatically loyal followers, they're out of luck.

The other direction to look in is at having them face rivals who also have crazy Influence skills. Social Engineering has rules for competing Influence rolls.

You can also give them targets with Resistant or Immune to Influence; Social Engineering has this too, but you can work it out from Indomitable being essentially immunity to Influence.

Bill Stoddard
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:47 AM   #5
Walrus
 
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Default Re: Dealing with really high influence skills?

Greetings!

So, you can start with "Ridiculous Reactions" paragraph from DF 11, p. 21.

Then, you'd probably need Social Engineering.

After all, use modifiers. Some NPCs should be harder to convince and it's explicitly stated that they can have predefined reactions. Though it shouldn't be so often. Find (make) important NPCs with Intolerance or Bully, or Berserk, or Loner, or Indomitable and Unfazeable. Exploit PC's Disadvantages with temptations and enemies.

Important NPCs might have higher Will than ordinary people. Especially when you need to convince some bright person, which will certainly have OPH (Arrogant), Clueless, Absent-Minded or No Sense of Humour and your PCs wouldn't know which.

But then, after all if your PCs have skill 18, then it's cinematic and highly heroic game, so foes, treats and challenges should be suited. For cinematic cases in High Tech you can look through Action series (books 1 and 2).
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:50 AM   #6
Trainik
 
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Default Re: Dealing with really high influence skills?

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
So if the PCs want to lead soldiers, Influence skills are good enough, but if they want to recruit fanatically loyal followers, they're out of luck.
Interesting. If they wanted to lead fanatically loyal followers, what would they need?

Thanks for the quick and detailed reply!

Edit: Let's say the players wanted to convince the crowd to go with a bicameral rather than unicameral legislature. Which tables in Social Engineering would apply?

Last edited by Trainik; 10-25-2012 at 11:53 AM. Reason: Added quick question
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Old 10-25-2012, 11:55 AM   #7
B9anders
 
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Default Re: Dealing with really high influence skills?

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Originally Posted by Trainik View Post
Interesting. If they wanted to lead fanatically loyal followers, what would they need?

Thanks for the quick and detailed reply!
Probably the perk Extra Option: Expanded Influence Rolls so they can use the Expanded Influence Rolls table from Social Engineering, p31. :)
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:02 PM   #8
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Dealing with really high influence skills?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainik View Post
Hey everyone,

I'm running a campaign that focuses on social interaction and town management. Long story short, the players are in charge of a small, post-apocalyptic town, and they have to do things like establish a government, work out logistics, laws, diplomacy, etc. A fair amount of debating with each other and the NPCs.

So far it's a lot of fun, but I'm running into problems with players having what seem to me to be crazy-high influence skills. Since reaction rolls a are quick contest against Will, if you have 18 Diplomacy, you'll usually win vs. people with the usual 10-12 Will scores. This makes it way too easy to convince the townspeople to support your candidate, or to side with you in a power struggle.
Clearly the problem is that you are making all the rolls without modifiers or opposition. It's less about the will of the townspeople than it is about the persuasive ability of the opposing candidate, and of course if things look to go poorly that can swing the roll against you.
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:09 PM   #9
Trainik
 
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Location: Evanston, IL
Default Re: Dealing with really high influence skills?

This is good, keep it coming, I'm learning a lot! (Side note, now that I'm re-reading Social Engineering, I'm realizing how useful it will be).

Okay, question. One of the characters is a slightly mad prophet of sorts (the player is just fantastic at this role, it's amazing to watch). The character is amazingly good at shaming/lecturing a crowd on their civic duties, on their responsibility to take care of the impoverished, on the importance of certain civic works projects, etc. (kind of like Jesus + Cato the Younger). He's inspirational and educational. What skills should he have? Public Speaking, I think is a given. But, should there be more?

In a related vein, he wouldn't know politics, but he does speak on issues that relate to politics. For example, he might oppose a bill on moral grounds, and speak against it. Should that be a Public Speaking roll?
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Old 10-25-2012, 12:31 PM   #10
whswhs
 
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Location: Lawrence, KS
Default Re: Dealing with really high influence skills?

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Originally Posted by Trainik View Post
Okay, question. One of the characters is a slightly mad prophet of sorts (the player is just fantastic at this role, it's amazing to watch). The character is amazingly good at shaming/lecturing a crowd on their civic duties, on their responsibility to take care of the impoverished, on the importance of certain civic works projects, etc. (kind of like Jesus + Cato the Younger). He's inspirational and educational. What skills should he have? Public Speaking, I think is a given. But, should there be more?

In a related vein, he wouldn't know politics, but he does speak on issues that relate to politics. For example, he might oppose a bill on moral grounds, and speak against it. Should that be a Public Speaking roll?
Making the speech itself would be Public Speaking, certainly, and if there were opposition, you would use the debate rules. (Note also that there are are rules in SE for dealing with hecklers, either by debating with them, or by joking with them or mocking them.) But he could boost Public Speaking in several ways:

* He could have a very clear formulation of what he was advocating; this would be a complementary roll against Theology if he were going on religious grounds, or against Philosophy on secular or rational grounds.

* He could take time beforehand to write out what he wanted to say; this would be a complementary roll against Writing.

* He could use Current Affairs or Area Knowledge to make topical allusions to illustrate his speeches.

Now, suppose he's trying to change the climate of public opinion. You would want to look at Advertising and Propaganda for that. He would then treat his Public Speaking skill as a complementary skill to Propaganda.

If you look further at the rules for Legislative Politics, you'll find rules for getting a decision-making body to decide in favor of your proposal. This is Politics if you're a member of the body, but Propaganda if you're seeking to influence it from outside.

You also want to look at the social skills of the opposition, of course. You wouldn't send a group of professional adventurers to do battle against disarmed peasants or monks, after all; you'd give them foes with some weapons and skills, right?

Bill Stoddard
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