How many points for the movie versions of Marvel's super-bricks?

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Do you have any idea how much strength is required for the type of swinging he does? Spiderman's ST is pretty variable, but it's hard to justify a ST of lower than 30 for routine use.

The GURPS rules for swinging don't have a minimum ST requirement!

The Hulk, as I recall, throws a tank a substantial distance, which puts his ST in the 500-1,000 range. In the Avengers movie, he smashes a giant CGI worm-ship of unknown (but probably high) DR and hit points.

Okay, I just went and watched all the relevant scenes on YouTube. Throwing the tank was the 2003 film, and for that 500-1,000 ST seems appropriate. In the 2008 film, he only fights HMMWVs, and never throws them (though he does throw parts of them to great effect a couple of times). ST 29/90 does the trick for that.

In the 2008 movie, he also shrugs off small arms fire so well that I'd say he clearly has a fair amount of DR. Still not sure if we should interpret machine gun fire as doing any damage to him. He takes some hits from a grenade launcher, which clearly hurt him but don't at all stop him. Shielding Betty from an incoming helicopter (which is about to crash into them after the Hulk threw part of a HMMWV at it) leaves him pretty thoroughly cut up.

From that I'd say... at least 30 DR to resist small arms fire. From High Tech, Grenade Launchers don't actually do all that much damage, so I'm not sure the Hulk needs a huge amount of Damage Reduction. I'm not sure about this, but I think 2008 Hulk might have something like ST 20 (Size, -10%) [90]; ST +9/+70 (Size, -10%) [351]; DR 60 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%) [180]; Damage Reduction (4) [100].

One odd result of stating the Hulk this was is that if you assume the Abomination had similar stats, this leaves them incapable of actually hurting each other with their punches... which may actually fit the way their fight plays out, since it ends with the Hulk choking the Abomination out.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

I think that, for the marvel-verse, most if not all super-ST characters have a feature that automagically limit their strength to what the target can bear.
It is stated as a personal choice for Spiderman and Thor, and it make sense for most of the others.

For example (it would certainly require some fine-tuning, I have not playtested this !)
+ 0% Feature : Unless the ST is applied unknowingly or as the result of a failed mental disadvantage check, the ST is lowered so that the average damage will bring the target to 0 HP. Skills and weapons bonus, and the opponent armor and IT/Dr are taken into account.

Or perhaps give them 2 ST scores: one to use against inanimate target (and other bricks), the other to use against human/animals.

Either of those feature, and ultrapower, allow for supers that routinely lift tons, can casually walk through a concrete wall, can sometimes lift a mountain or drag the island of Manhattan away, can trade punches with each others for effect but can also hit (un)armoured mundane without reducing them to a gory pulp.

Celjabba

GURPS already allows you to pull your ST when punching.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

GURPS already allows you to pull your ST when punching.

Yeah, and there is no frickin' way that an automagic adjustment to let you skip the warm-up and unload at full power on everything you see without ever violating eg: Pacifism: Cannot Kill is just a Feature, or even a Perk. I'd call it a +50% Cosmic Rule Exemption (for the rule that says "hitting people can kill them") on your unarmed damage, minimum, and even that's a bit rubbery, IMHO.

[Walrus]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

Yeah, and there is no frickin' way that an automagic adjustment to let you skip the warm-up and unload at full power on everything you see without ever violating eg: Pacifism: Cannot Kill is just a Feature, or even a Perk. I'd call it a +50% Cosmic Rule Exemption (for the rule that says "hitting people can kill them") on your unarmed damage, minimum, and even that's a bit rubbery, IMHO.

You don't need this for cinematic game. Gun Fu has cinematic perk for "pulling" damage from guns even down to zero level to utilize Pacifism against mooks which fall down but don't die. So, melee fighter doesn't need even perk.

[Mr Frost]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

...
Iron Man (Iron Man, Iron Man 2, The Avangers): Clearly has a lot of DR. Unlike the Dreadnought template from Supers, may not need Hardened (the Supers template seems designed to resist anti-tank weapons, which I don't think Tony ever does). There are some scenes where the armor is wrecked but Tony comes out okay, which make me wonder about Damage Reduction, but that could be an application of cinematic rules (say, flesh wounds). Can't remember off the top of my head if he does anything particularly impressive strength-wise...

In the first Iron Man film , tony takes a hit to the chest from a 125mm tank cannon {Motovilikha D-81TM Rapira High Tech p140} without apparant damage .
The round doesn't seem to explode so we can safely assume it was a long rod penetrator which is a minimum of 6Dx30 (2) , but I doubt He has DR 1260 nor even 630 hardened .

From My perspective , I would say His suit has a combination of high DR , a few levels of hardened {some random Afghan being able to kill Him with an RPG costing 5 goats and a bottle of vodka doesn't fit the feel of the character} , say 4 levels of Damage Reduction and some ablative DR {He really seems well protected in there} and this would match the way some opponents are able to wear His suit down with very powerful attacks to the point He clearly is becoming vunerable without turning Him into fertilizer .




I would also peg Him by that second movie with fairly high Per {His situational awareness verses multiple opponents was actually quite impressive} and probably should get some skill bonuses as in expert program bonus from His A.I. butler {who is very much an ally in the films} .

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Walrus

You don't need this for cinematic game. Gun Fu has cinematic perk for "pulling" damage from guns even down to zero level to utilize Pacifism against mooks which fall down but don't die. So, melee fighter doesn't need even perk.

Superheroes do need a perk or advantage, because in general they're capable of retroactively pulling their blow; they almost never hit someone too hard by accident or mistake (and that can probably be covered by critical failures).

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Superheroes do need a perk or advantage, because in general they're capable of retroactively pulling their blow; they almost never hit someone too hard by accident or mistake (and that can probably be covered by critical failures).

While I would agree that it seems like it's very hard to serious injure/kill someone in comic book combat even though you're flinging around enough damage to easily KO someone in a single hit, I'm not sure I agree with that comics show retroactive damage reduction. In particular, there's quite a few comics where a hero starts out pulling their punches too much only to ramp up later in the combat after they aren't doing enough damage. Likewise, there's also examples where a hero went overboard because they assumed the villain could take it. It all just depends on the comics you're looking at.

I would suggest a genre switch for the deadliness of combat rather than something the character purchases if you want it to be a campaign thing. Many like that Supers combat is slightly more realistic and dangerous in GURPS. Besides, there's plenty of other options. You can you can build non lethal attacks (fatigue, incapacitation inflictions, binding, etc), limit your ST damage (by default), or purchase Variable rather cheaply if you want to limit your risk of killing someone.

[the_matrix_walker]

Just to note, Colossus and the Hulk both can, and have, worn armor.

That limitation really should not be invoked for a character who just happens not to wear armor, however cost effective it may be. If Colossus is going up against something he knows will pierce his metal hide, and Forge said "I'll make you an adamantium breastplate", Peter would say "bolshoe spasibo."

[borithan]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Iron Man (Iron Man, Iron Man 2, The Avangers): Clearly has a lot of DR. Unlike the Dreadnought template from Supers, may not need Hardened (the Supers template seems designed to resist anti-tank weapons, which I don't think Tony ever does).

In the first Iron Man film he is hit by a shot by a tank, falls out of the sky and then proceeds to walk it off... if that. He just seems to stand up and is fine (ok, the armour is a bit buckled when he gets home and gets caught in a compromising position by Pepper, but hey).

Now, I don't think this is consistent with the rest of the treatment though, and is just a matter of cinematic injury.

Oh, I see this is already mentioned.

Oh, and for the film Hulk: That jet in the Avengers would be firing 20mm cannon rounds, not an MG.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by borithan

Oh, and for the film Hulk: That jet in the Avengers would be firing 20mm cannon rounds, not an MG.

Er... yeah. I don't really know weapons terminology that well, I'm just going by what High Tech says, and I guess High Tech lumps "Machine Guns" and "Autocannons" into one category, so that's led me to be bad about the distinction.

Anyway, let's run some numbers on the Hulk. Let's assume Banner is a 200 point character: borderline cinematic, but not quite hero material without his powers. The base cost of Alternate Form, with enough levels of Reduced Time plus Reflexive so that someone can shoot him and he's transformed by the time the bullet reaches him is +120%. Add limitations and the base cost works out to about 30 points (I'm unsure exactly what limitations are appropriate here, the cost should probably be less than that but it's a nice round number).

So: can we build Banner, with his Hulk form, on 1,000 points? With Banner cost + Alternate Form base cost at 230 points, we've got 770 points to spend on the Hulk. Since Alternate Forms are discounted by 10%, the Hulk can be worth 770 / 0.90 = 855 points more than Banner, or 1,055 points.

This looks very doable if you only care about the 2008 movie and The Avengers. My notes on those movies put The Hulk very close to the top of what Supers defines as I-scale, so let's imagine GURPS: Avengers explicitly limited our heroes to I-scale, and Banner's player decided to go to the very top of that. If the Hulk is SM 1, that's ST 20 (Size, -10%) [90]; ST +10/+100 (Super-Effort, +300%; Size, -10%) [390]; DR 50 (Can't Wear Armor, -40%) [150]; Damage Reduction (10) [150]. 780 points total.

This leaves us with 275 points to spend on other things. The Hulk's other Attributes and Secondary Characteristics are, in some other cases, probably good but not superhuman. Say DX 14 [80]; IQ 9 [-20]; HT 14 [40]; Will 14 [25]. We probably don't need much more than 20 points in skills (mainly Brawling, Jumping, Throwing, and Wrestling). Even before adding other disadvantages, we've got 130 points left to spend on things like Super Jump and Regeneration. While it's just been an estimate, it looks like 1,000 points is a fairly reasonable point total for Hulk 2008/2012.

Next question: how do you model Thor flying hammer-first into things?