[UT] Layering combat hardsuit over cybersuit

[Agemegos]

As I have mentioned at tedious length before, the Imperial marines in my SF setting FLAT BLACK are commandos: light-role infantry intended for counter-terrorist and security work and brief raids against soft targets in rear areas. They are not meant to go toe-to-toe with real war-fighting armies in open battle.

At TL10 I put them in commando battlesuits (UT p.183), which presumably fit in a stealth capsule (UT p.232) where SM+1 heavy battlesuits (UT p.184) would not would not. Besides, SM+1 battlesuits are presumably at a disadvantage inside buildings, where commando operations go often.

AT TL11 the fair-dinkum war-fighting kit is the dreadnought battlesuit (UT p.185), which is SM+1 (eight feet tall, 500 lb. plus occupant). That is believably unsuited to drop capsules and commando operations, I think. So what do we want for the marines? The next step down from Dreadnought battlesuit at TL11 is the military cybersuit (UT p.185), and that is not as heavily armoured as the commando battlesuit one TL lower (DR 80* as opposed to 105/75). But it is flexible, and I could put TL 11 combat hardsuit (UT p.180) on over the top. That would cost -1 DX for layering. But it wouldn't increase SM, the total weight would be only 80 lb, and it would give DR 180/140, which is snappy dressing. And even after you duplicated a few functions with eg. hypersprectal chamaeleon surface for the hardsuit it is still reasonably cheap.

So, what does everyone advise? Is -1 DX instead of SM+1 a respectable trade-off to get DR180/140 for $60,000 and 80 lb instead of 200/150 for $210,000 and 500 lb?

A player "suggests" that, given the muscular, bio-mimetic nature of cybersuit it isn't going to bunch up like lower-tech flexible armour, and therefore the DX penalty ought not to apply, or it should be possible to get rid of it with some monetary expense. Should I be tempted by his blandishments?

[vierasmarius]

The Civilian and Military Cybersuits are 30 and 50 pounds, respectively. That just sounds too bulky to fit without penalty under other armor. I think the solution is to design a "Reinforced" Military Cybersuit, basically an upgraded Commando Battlesuit. Maybe DR 150/100, $80K, 80-100lb, with the ST and Move benefits of the Cybersuit.

If you want to stick to RAW though, it seems fine to accept a -1 DX for the added protection and flexibility of a combined Hardsuit and Cybersuit.

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

The Civilian and Military Cybersuits are 30 and 50 pounds, respectively. That just sounds too bulky to fit without penalty under other armor.

Even if the over-armour be custom-made to the purpose?

I think the solution is to design a "Reinforced" Military Cybersuit, basically an upgraded Commando Battlesuit. Maybe DR 150/100, $80K, 80-100lb, with the ST and Move benefits of the Cybersuit.

So that's what, compared to layering? Trading off 30/40 of DR for removing the -1 to DX?

If you want to stick to RAW though, it seems fine to accept a -1 DX for the added protection and flexibility of a combined Hardsuit and Cybersuit.

Yeah, the flexibility is attractive. With the layered approach you can leave off the over-armour and have a light-duty armour, when that is what you need.

[ed_209a]

Originally Posted by Brett

Even if the over-armour be custom-made to the purpose?

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I think the solution is to design a "Reinforced" Military Cybersuit

Originally Posted by Brett

So that's what, compared to layering? Trading off 30/40 of DR for removing the -1 to DX?

If the overarmor is custom-made to integrate with the basic cybersuit, I think you are already thinking of a reinforced cybersuit. The only feature in the hardsuit that is not redundant is the armor plating itself.

It sounds to me like modern combat armor that is designed to accept ceramic plates without undue additional bulk.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Brett

So that's what, compared to layering? Trading off 30/40 of DR for removing the -1 to DX?

Well, the stats I listed are just an example. I based it off the typical progression of armor (ie, +50% DR per TL) but you could justify anything up to the 180/140 of the layered suit. Perhaps it would be enough of a balancing factor to have the armor and exoskeleton integrated into a single suit, making them unusable separately.

[jacobmuller]

You could just stick with the Commando Battlesuit and say it was upgraded to TL11 standards, DR160/115?
Just one suit to don and no -1DX kerfuffle.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

You could just stick with the Commando Battlesuit and say it was upgraded to TL11 standards, DR160/115?
Just one suit to don and no -1DX kerfuffle.

I got the impression that having an undersuit for light duty and a reinforced overarmour for assault was a part of it.

Personally, I'd say that designing an armour as underlayer and overlayer ought to be possible. It should add cost, sure, but even the combined weight of a cybersuit and combat hardsuit is far less than the weight of a Commando Battlesuit. So if the battlesuit does not impose a DX penalty, why should the combination do so if it is specially designed to work together?

[Kalzazz]

This has come up in our game also

Why cant you wear a bioplas suit or a nanoweave suit under your commando battlesuit without penalty? Assuming soldiers do not wear their commando battlesuits over bare skin (though actually, this DOES put the commando in commando battlesuits) it seems they should be able to wear the clothing level armors under it

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

This has come up in our game also

Why cant you wear a bioplas suit or a nanoweave suit under your commando battlesuit without penalty? Assuming soldiers do not wear their commando battlesuits over bare skin (though actually, this DOES put the commando in commando battlesuits) it seems they should be able to wear the clothing level armors under it

There are a couple issues that might prevent this. The first is that, apart from a few exceptions, power suits need to be individually tailored to fit their user. This implies very close allowances, so while it wouldn't necessarily be impossible to wear clothing under the suit, it would likely interfere with the user's movements.

A second (related) issue is the control interface itself. Powersuits work through motion feedback - detecting the (sometimes minute) movements of the wearer, and amplifying them using the mechanical muscles of the armor. This is the primary reason there is a Battlesuit skill. Again, while it may be possible to wear clothes under a Powersuit, it could make control more difficult by adding a thicker layer between the user's body and the "control surface" of the suit itself.

Both of these are less of an issue when wearing a light, form-fitting Powersuit (ie, Cybersuit or Nanosuit) underneath non-form-fitting hard armor. The over-armor can be made in a larger size to accommodate the added bulk of the suit, and it won't interfere with the control systems. I still think that there's enough bulk to justify the normal GURPS rules for layering armor, unless the two suits are tailored to function together (adding cost, and likely making the Hardsuit unusable without the underlying Powersuit).

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Both of these are less of an issue when wearing a light, form-fitting Powersuit (ie, Cybersuit or Nanosuit) underneath non-form-fitting hard armor. The over-armor can be made in a larger size to accommodate the added bulk of the suit, and it won't interfere with the control systems. I still think that there's enough bulk to justify the normal GURPS rules for layering armor, unless the two suits are tailored to function together (adding cost, and likely making the Hardsuit unusable without the underlying Powersuit).

I believe that tailoring the two armours to work together was the plan here. And yes, of course the Combat Hardsuit would be useless without an inner layer that matched the dimensions of the Cybersuit. That's just common sense.

Note that the bulk is much less than many of the larger armours that nevertheless have no DX penalty.