One True Infinity

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

No, that simply isn't true. Infinity isn't fighting Merlin.

Not fighting it, but it's definitely seen as an enemy in waiting. The overall paranoia is as if Merlin would have attacked if it knew Da Sikret.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Who do you think is good in that equation?

I think Infinity sees other worlds as inferiors, not fully deserving to be treated as equals. I don't see them as good guys, but they're certainly not seeing the other worlds as such either.

[David Johnston2]

[QUOTE=Molokh]

Not fighting it, but it's definitely seen as an enemy in waiting. The overall paranoia is as if Merlin would have attacked if it knew Da Sikret.

One day it very well may do that, particularly if Merlin's Soviet Union has spies who can find out about the Gate spell. Should it make an alliance with Centrum, things could get very sticky. Open contact would mean the Soviets wouldn't have to get their hands on classified American information. They could just develop their own Gate spell.

I think Infinity sees other worlds as inferiors, not fully deserving to be treated as equals. I don't see them as good guys, but they're certainly not seeing the other worlds as such either.

The thing is Infinity are not being "portrayed" as the good guys. They're being portrayed as guys mostly out to make a buck and protect themselves from potential threats.

[Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2]

Infinity does suffer from the "One True Way" point-of-view.

When Infinity discovers a new world, their first thoughts are NOT "What can we learn here?" or "Does this place need help?" or even "Should we go home and not bother them?" Infinity's first thoughts are the same as Centrum's - "What can we do to make a profit from this?" and "What do we need to change to make it conform to our ideals?"

Infinity has used other worlds as exploitable resources, as testing grounds for theories of social evolution, as avenues for nationalist politicking, even as toys (Johnson's Rome being the most egregious example). Infinity went so far as to plan to trigger nuclear wars on two worlds (Caliph and Reich-5) because they feared their potential.

The signpost of Infinity's thinking is "interdimensional copyright" - their idea that it's okay to exploit ideas for free if the originator doesn't have a living counterpart on Homeline. And if the originator does have a counterpart, that the Homeline version gets royalties. Even if the Homeline version never created anything in his life! Obviously, this is because they believe that the outtime counterpart is simply a reflection of the "real" person, who deserves all the credit. Likewise, the notion that outtime counterparts of Homeline nations are somehow "extensions" of their Homeline versions, giving the Homeline version political and legal jurisdiction over them.

As for "The Secret", the morality of a non-interference directive is in how you apply it. Some worlds may actually need dimensional travel to save their population from some impending disaster (evacuate to an empty Earth, or repopulate extinct species by taking a few breeding pairs from a number of Earths, or harvesting a plague cure from a rare botanical that never evolved on their Earth). Other types of worlds may or may not be a threat (magical or super worlds), but that is no excuse to hunt down researchers who might stumble onto a working parachronic drive and kidnapping or discrediting them. Going around babbling about alternate worlds isn't always wise, but preventing them from finding out for themselves is IMO immoral.

A "Good Guy" in the interdimensional scene would try to learn from new worlds, to help inhabited worlds not be exploited by outsiders, to avert or help the refugees of natural apocalypses ... and even to go home and not bother them. A dimensional traveler should not interfere in a world's politics or history to make it conform to his standards (yes some worlds have Nazis but they are that world's Nazis and it's that world's responsibility to shoot their own rabid dogs).

That's my rant.

[tratclif]

Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2

Infinity went so far as to plan to trigger nuclear wars on two worlds (Caliph and Reich-5) because they feared their potential.

Citation, please?

On Infinite Worlds p.63, Homeline governments planned a massive invasion and/or provoking a German-Japanese nuclear war, but the plans were shelved because of the projected casualties to Homeline troops and Reich-5 civilians among other reasons.

On Caliph, the war was caused by indigenous tensions, and Infinity just happened to jump in a few months after it started (Infinite Worlds pp. 117-118).

[Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2]

Originally Posted by tratclif

Citation, please?

On Infinite Worlds p.63, Homeline governments planned a massive invasion and/or provoking a German-Japanese nuclear war, but the plans were shelved because of the projected casualties to Homeline troops and Reich-5 civilians among other reasons.

You made my citation for me. As I said, Infinity planned to trigger a nuclear war. I never said they did it, just that they planned it. Which, in my mind, is as great a crime.
And the MAIN reason was that there was no way to guarantee that Reich-5 would not get a conveyor and carry the war back to them. All courageous about righting wrongs is Infinity - except when they have to face the same risks as the people they're attacking.

On Caliph, the war was caused by indigenous tensions, and Infinity just happened to jump in a few months after it started (Infinite Worlds pp. 117-118).

Quite right, I misspoke. I checked my copy of IW again, and it was Centrum that had planned to trigger a nuclear war on Caliph. But Infinity isn't going out of their way to stop them.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2

A "Good Guy" in the interdimensional scene would try to learn from new worlds, to help inhabited worlds not be exploited by outsiders, to avert or help the refugees of natural apocalypses ... and even to go home and not bother them. A dimensional traveler should not interfere in a world's politics or history to make it conform to his standards (yes some worlds have Nazis but they are that world's Nazis and it's that world's responsibility to shoot their own rabid dogs).

That last bit, I'd disagree on. By the same logic they are that world's horrible natural disasters that are going to kill everybody, it's their responsibility and you shouldn't intervene. Any blanket non-interference principle, even in politics or history, is an abdication of your responsibility to make and act on moral judgements. Yes, other people will disagree with your morals, and this will inevitably lead to conflicts with them, but if you don't believe in the rightness of your principles enough to do something about gross violations of them, even when it would be trivially easy, they aren't much as principles. Though one should be cautious about automatically opposing the Nazis, they aren't necessarily equivalent to the homeline version, and even if they are, there are probably going to be places where even the human alternatives are worse.

But no, there is no real way to spin Infinity as the white hat good guys, they're medium grey at best. I've always thought the logical way to change this if you want some more moral factions is to simply have this debate in the context of Homeline politics. After all, exactly what is Infinity able to do about it if the political control of the US or the EU or China changes hands to a party that believes Infinity control and this Secret stuff is a mistake and embarks on its own policies? Start the First Multiworld War? That they all agreed to it in the first place is one of the more glaring handwaves of the setting.

[David Johnston2]

[QUOTE=Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2]

Infinity does suffer from the "One True Way" point-of-view.

When Infinity discovers a new world, their first thoughts are NOT "What can we learn here?" or "Does this place need help?" or even "Should we go home and not bother them?" Infinity's first thoughts are the same as Centrum's - "What can we do to make a profit from this?" and "What do we need to change to make it conform to our ideals?"

What's the difference between "Does this place need help" and "What do we need to change to make it conform to our ideals"?

Infinity has used other worlds as exploitable resources

,

Is there something wrong with that?

as testing grounds for theories of social evolution,

So far as I know, they have observed parallels to see what they can learn about them

as avenues for nationalist politicking, even as toys (Johnson's Rome being the most egregious example)

.

Johnsons Rome is not an example of One True Way. It's an example of someone getting away with a fait accompli he would have been jailed for if he'd been caught when he was doing it.

Infinity went so far as to plan to trigger nuclear wars on two worlds (Caliph and Reich-5) because they feared their potential.

Didn't Reich-5 go on to a career of inter-dimensional conquest thanks to Homeline's failure to go through with that idea?

The signpost of Infinity's thinking is "interdimensional copyright" - their idea that it's okay to exploit ideas for free if the originator doesn't have a living counterpart on Homeline. And if the originator does have a counterpart, that the Homeline version gets royalties. Even if the Homeline version never created anything in his life! Obviously, this is because they believe that the outtime counterpart is simply a reflection of the "real" person, who deserves all the credit

.

<shrug> In the real world nations can and do freely copy technologies and works and fiction from nations they have no copyright treaty with. It doesn't mean they don't think the other nations are real. It just means they are more concerned with their own interests than they are with those of people in far-off lands. The reason why Homeline versions of creators sometimes get royalties is to make it unprofitable for companies to shop around for extra-Homeline versions of someone's invention or story so they won't have to pay the inventors. For example suppose Homeline Goon Riddenberry is trying to interest the networks in his idea for Star Wagon Train and the nets say, "That sounds like a great idea, but why should we pay that guy? Let's just look for a close parallel where he already sold it, buy the complete set of DVDs and broadcast that!"

Likewise, the notion that outtime counterparts of Homeline nations are somehow "extensions" of their Homeline versions, giving the Homeline version political and legal jurisdiction over them.

Uh...since when?

As for "The Secret", the morality of a non-interference directive is in how you apply it. Some worlds may actually need dimensional travel to save their population from some impending disaster (evacuate to an empty Earth, or repopulate extinct species by taking a few breeding pairs from a number of Earths, or harvesting a plague cure from a rare botanical that never evolved on their Earth)

.

Infinity has saved populations of dying Earths and sold or given plague cures. Those worlds don't need the dimensional travel technology. They just need what the technology offers them.

Other types of worlds may or may not be a threat (magical or super worlds), but that is no excuse to hunt down researchers who might stumble onto a working parachronic drive and kidnapping or discrediting them. Going around babbling about alternate worlds isn't always wise, but preventing them from finding out for themselves is IMO immoral.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with One True Way. Nobody thinks it's the Right and Proper thing to do. It's the cynical and pragmatic thing to do. How can you have One True Way, when you have all those nations and NGOs working around and against each other?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

One day it very well may do that, particularly if Merlin's Soviet Union has spies who can find out about the Gate spell.

Also remember that Merlin's Soviet Union is run by an undead Josef Stalin. That sort of deserves extra-special consideration.

Nobody seems to be addressing my point in the other thread about the kamikaze conveyor being an unstoppable weapon against any known target. The First Multiversal War looks like a duel with sten guns at 5 paces to me.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Nobody seems to be addressing my point in the other thread about the kamikaze conveyor being an unstoppable weapon against any known target. The First Multiversal War looks like a duel with sten guns at 5 paces to me.

What's to address? New movement technologies that bypass existing defenses always do that for a little while - whether we are talking about submarines, airplanes, conveyers, or the world's very first amphibious invasion. Although kamikaze delivery is a crummy method, what you do is fit your ballistic missile sub with a conveyer, send it to an undisclosed timeline in the same quantum as its standard deployment, and should you ever need it, launch in the other timeline and use the subquantum conveyers attached to your MIRVs to snap them home just before they reach detonation height.

Of course, this assumes there are no defenses. Every government on Homeline has known about this threat for a while now, and I'm sure they've thrown quite a lot of funding at coming up with an anti-conveyer screen. It would be useless tech for adventurers and probably not something they'd be advertising, so I wouldn't put high odds on absence of a mention of it meaning it does not exist.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by tratclif

Citation, please?

On Infinite Worlds p.63, Homeline governments planned a massive invasion and/or provoking a German-Japanese nuclear war, but the plans were shelved because of the projected casualties to Homeline troops and Reich-5 civilians among other reasons..

Of course since they hadn't decided which to do and never settled on either means they only "planned" to do those things in the same sense that the United States "planned" to invade Canada. They came up with ideas about how to do it, but never actually decided to.