Britannica-6 and the Five Civilized Tribes

[Akicita]

Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2

Possibility 3: The relocations happened as in Homeline, and the 1840 Crisis fissioned the USA into the New England Confederacy and the United States. Immediately, the Five Nations - in exile in Oklahoma - requested military aid from New England and Canada, which granted it (probably for no other reason than to tick off the slave-holding S.O.B.s in the U.S.)...

Do not overlook the fact that the Cherokee were also slave-holders. Aiding them to tick off white slave-holders strikes me as a bit off...

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Akicita

Do not overlook the fact that the Cherokee were also slave-holders. Aiding them to tick off white slave-holders strikes me as a bit off...

If Lincoln could emancipate blacks mostly to entice french aid, then a sensible cherokee leader could do the same.

[Akicita]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

If Lincoln could emancipate blacks mostly to entice french aid, then a sensible cherokee leader could do the same.

Lincoln didn't emancipate any slaves within Union territory - and there were slaves in the Union. He emancipated other people's slaves. You're asking the Cherokee to emancipate their own slaves - quite another matter.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Well if any person, let alone president, every deserved a bullet in the skull it was Jackson.

Actually, someone tried in 1835. It failed miserably. The following is taken from Wikipedia, but it squares with what I've seen in my own reading:

On January 30, 1835 .... Jackson was crossing the Capitol Rotunda after the funeral of South Carolina Representative Warren R. Davis when Richard Lawrence approached Jackson. Lawrence aimed two pistols at Jackson, which both misfired. Jackson then attacked Lawrence with his cane, prompting his aides to restrain him. Others present, including David Crockett, restrained and disarmed Lawrence, who was clearly deranged.

Anybody want to posit an alternate universe where one of the guns went off, killing Jackson?

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Actually, someone tried in 1835. It failed miserably. The following is taken from Wikipedia, but it squares with what I've seen in my own reading:
...
Anybody want to posit an alternate universe where one of the guns went off, killing Jackson?

Now that would also be an interesting time to do it. After some of the horror, but before the massive Cherokee murderous eviction.

I would also like to read someone's plausible alternate timeline.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Akicita

Do not overlook the fact that the Cherokee were also slave-holders. Aiding them to tick off white slave-holders strikes me as a bit off...

Thank you for catching this! In real history, some Cherokee did own slaves- the same as some white southerners and northerners [and even some blacks].

As for Flyn's comment about Honest Abe- I doubt the Emancipation Proclamation [which did not free the slaves held inside the US- only those in the Confederacy] had anything to do with enticing French aid. It was a war measure designed to harm the Confederate war effort, nothing more and nothing less. Lincoln was doing whatever he could to preserve the Uniion, and freeing some slaves while leaving [at least for the time being] others in bondage seemed to be the best way to do that.

[combatmedic]

Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2

America isn't the focus of the Britannica-6 world - that's why it's called "Britannica" - but the question does come up about the tragic "Trail of Tears" incidents.

In the Homeline version, George Washington and Henry Knox began an experiment of cultural imperialization, imposing European social mores, technology, and religion on native peoples. The result was the Five Civilized Tribes, who lived in a predominantly European/American style in what were basically semiautonomous nations within U.S. borders. Eventually in the 1830's, President Jackson - despite the ruling of the U.S. Supreme Court that the Five Civilized Tribes were in fact independent countries not subject to U.S. law - had them all deported and their cultures irreparably shattered in an act of ethnic cleansing that us pale-skinned types still feel ashamed about.

In Britannica-6, New England was in active political struggles with the Jackson Administration that would culminate in 1840 with the USA fissioning into two nations. Jackson hated the English, and the New Englanders were actively copying them. And one of the main traits of the Britannica-6 English is a love of achievement and success, no matter who does it.

The Five Civilized Tribes had gone in the course of a single generation from tribal Paleolithic peoples to early-industrial nations with constitutional governments, schools, and literacy. The Cherokee were especially noteworthy, having independently created their own alphabet and gone from a totally illiterate culture to a completely literate society in only a handful of years. Achievements like that - not to mention the bastardly way Jackson broke American law in implementing his genocide - could not have failed to grab the sympathy of the British-emulating New Englanders.

Possibility 1: The mass relocations went off as in Homeline, but Jackson, annoyed by New Englander whining, deliberately made them even more brutal, resulting in a higher death toll and possible extermination of the Tribes. The disgust generated by this in New England was probably a major emotional factor in the 1840 Crisis.

Possibility 2: The relocations were prevented by the constant political infighting, but when the 1840 Crisis hit, all bets were off. Instead of relocations, it was a war between the Five Tribes and the U.S., which the Five Tribes lost. in the Britannica-6 present of 1887, there is a substantial refugee population of the Five Tribes in the New England Confederacy, possibly even some towns, and veterans of the "Five Tribes Wars" are considered heroic figures. In New England, the acceptance is enough to allow Indian men to marry white women (something that will still get a gasp in England proper).

Possibility 3: The relocations happened as in Homeline, and the 1840 Crisis fissioned the USA into the New England Confederacy and the United States. Immediately, the Five Nations - in exile in Oklahoma - requested military aid from New England and Canada, which granted it (probably for no other reason than to tick off the slave-holding S.O.B.s in the U.S.). in the almost-half-century since, the Five Nations has grown into an industrialized oil-rich 19th-century state on the British model. Even though it is now capable of handling itself, it is still considered a joint protectorate of both the New England Confederacy and the Britsh Empire. It is considered by most English to be a land of wealth and romance, with Noble Red Warriors holding off the Evil Barabrian Slave-Holding Hordes of the United States (a topic of many cheap adventure novels). Five Nations Oil Barons make frequent trips to Europe and are much sought-after guests at the best parties.

Which is the more probable in Britannica-6? Presonal preference is #3, with #2 close behind.

Well, there were Indians of the five Tribes who resisted removal, sometimes with the help of their white neighbors. In fact, more than a few white folks in the South weren't as keen on removal as Jackson was- or the land speculators that backed his scheme.


Option #4 Whites from the US, dissatisfied with Jackson's policies, head west for freedom from ''King Andrew the First'' and his heavy handed successors. The Tribes allow the new settlers in, prodvided they agree to respect Indian law. With the added manpower and expertise brought by the newcomers, the Tribes make another leap forward, accelerated by the discovery of oil in the 1860s.

British influence and ecomnomic considerations lead the Five Tribes to adopt a plan of gradual emancipation.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

As for Flyn's comment about Honest Abe- I doubt the Emancipation Proclamation [which did not free the slaves held inside the US- only those in the Confederacy] had anything to do with enticing French aid. It was a war measure designed to harm the Confederate war effort, nothing more and nothing less. Lincoln was doing whatever he could to preserve the Uniion, and freeing some slaves while leaving [at least for the time being] others in bondage seemed to be the best way to do that.

A point well made and I would agree that French aid wasn't a major motive. However, I would argue that Lincoln was looking for an overseas reaction. British sentiment was very anti-slavery at the time and one of Lincoln's hopes was that issuing the Emancipation Proclamation would make it politically impossible for Britain to aid the Confederacy -- a calculation that seemed to pay off. So while Lincoln may not have looked for French aid for himself, he was certainly hoping to deny British aid to the Rebs.

Originally Posted by combatmedic

Option #4 Whites from the US, dissatisfied with Jackson's policies, head west for freedom from ''King Andrew the First'' and his heavy handed successors. The Tribes allow the new settlers in, prodvided they agree to respect Indian law. With the added manpower and expertise brought by the newcomers, the Tribes make another leap forward, accelerated by the discovery of oil in the 1860s. .

Have you read Eric Flint at all? He posits something similar for Arkansas, though with a somewhat more sympathetic Jackson .. or at least a politically outmanuevered one.

[Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2]

Originally Posted by combatmedic

Option #4 Whites from the US, dissatisfied with Jackson's policies, head west for freedom from ''King Andrew the First'' and his heavy handed successors. The Tribes allow the new settlers in, prodvided they agree to respect Indian law. With the added manpower and expertise brought by the newcomers, the Tribes make another leap forward, accelerated by the discovery of oil in the 1860s.

I would assume some white settlers came along during the eviction (they did in OTL). But actually having them as an influential factor smells of "White Man's Burden". The Five Tribes had all the experise they needed - they just lacked the freedom to use it. I would fold tthe "Option #4" into #3. Emancipation would come naturally if they follow Britannica-6's British model.

[Ramidel]

While all of you are bashing Jackson, I'd like to make one note:

It was Van Buren who sent the Cherokee west (the biggest and the most brutal of the relocations). So let's not let Jackson take all the blame here.