Maxmilian (Quantum 7)

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Moe Lane

I worry sometimes about "Timeline-number" creep. At this rate, Infinity will know of 664,478 timelines by 2037. :)

That's what the Scouts are there for... and even that is still a lot less than "Infinite" ;)

[Ramidel]

Originally Posted by Xenarthral

Shouldn't Major Civilizations include at least Orthodox (Russia), and probably
Chinese and Islamic on general principle regardless of what state the latter two's major nations are in?

Not necessarily major. It needs to be mentioned what's there in each part of the world, at least vaguely, of course.

Originally Posted by Xenarthral

How did Qing China turn into "the ruins of the Chinese Empire" (not your
phrase, but you didn't object...) rather than the nominal Republic of China?

The "Republic of China" was -one of the factions- in the ruins of the Chinese Empire, not the whole thing. Remember, the warlords around Beijing tended to support the Emperor IRL.

The Kuomingtang have never spoken for all of China.

Anyway, a Tai-Ping Empire? Awesome.

[Moe Lane]

Originally Posted by Ramidel

Not necessarily major. It needs to be mentioned what's there in each part of the world, at least vaguely, of course.

I'm letting it percolate in my head, but here are my first thoughts:

North America - not much changed, except that the non-Columbian states may be more hostile than originally considered. Russian Alaska's going to be a problem, particularly since they finally just found oil and gold up there.

Central America - dominated by Prussian-dominated Mexican Empire. ME's an unpleasant dictatorship with a propensity for gaudy uniforms, and good armies, but not as bad as Nazis. Work camps, not death camps. Definite oppression of the native Indio Mexicans, with inevitable revolutionaries (very Bolshevik)

Caribbean - it's all technically still Spain's - including the bits that the British sold back to the Spanish in the 1880s - but the Spanish aren't even trying anymore, or possibly have their own reasons to let Columbian freebooters operate out of Puerto Rico and Cuba to harry Mexican shipping.

South America - dominated by Empire of Brazil (which we'll make somewhat progressive, at least by local standards); Argentina and Grand Colombia oppose, with civil war in Chile acting as the proxy conflict. Brazil claims more territory than it administers, including large chunks of the Amazon. Suitable for mad science, of course.

Africa - The Ottomans still administer Egypt, the French control Algeria and Madagascar, the Spanish Morocco, The English South Africa, the Austrians the Congo (bought from Belgium) and Ethiopia (conquered in 1890s, for no really good reason). Everything else is wide open, including Mystic Weird Stuff. This timeline feels wrong to be African colony-friendly, and I'm still thinking up a plausible reason why.

Europe - Western Europe against the Austrian Empire, which includes Italy. No Portugal; Benelux might as well be a French district. Sweden includes Norway, Finland, Iceland, and Greenland. Ottomans are holding out - and still own Greece - but worse every year. Grecian revolutionaries very Bryonic.

Middle East - Ottomans still have it all, and apparently they exist solely to be pushed over by the next sufficiently determined filibusterer.

Russia / Central Asia - holding out; had an abortive Bolshevik Revolution, which got more or less crushed. I'm tempted to mix the survivors of that in with the Skoptsy, but that's in large part because I love Delta Green. Anyway, lots of conspiracies in the hinterlands.

Asia - Japan lost the Russo-Japanese War, but barely; it took Korea, the Phillipines and New Guinea a decade or two later, and is ripping off hunks of the Tai'ping Empire (along with the Nationalist Republic of China and the Socialist Republic of China, not to mention two pretenders to the Tai'ping Empire and the Siamese). India is quiet - Ghandi never left South Africa, and is currently raising all sorts of trouble there - and a little worried about all the ruckus going on elsewhere. The Spanish own some small bits of Indonesia, but are considering getting rid of them.

Australia - British-controlled, and possibly even *more* Australian than Homeline's.

(snip)Anyway, a Tai-Ping Empire? Awesome.

It's a underused setting, in my opinion. :)

[Frost]

I have to say I found your initial idea fascinating. Apparently GURPS does need another disunited America scenario, my hat goes off to you (well it would if I was wearing it), I thought they had all been done to death.

But at the risk of nitpicking the setting seems too 'busy', outside of North and (to a lesser extent) South America a lot of your additional changes feel like divergence points in their own right rather than consequences of the disintegration of the USA.

Originally Posted by Moe Lane

Africa - The Ottomans still administer Egypt, the French control Algeria and Madagascar, the Spanish Morocco, The English South Africa, the Austrians the Congo (bought from Belgium) and Ethiopia (conquered in 1890s, for no really good reason). Everything else is wide open, including Mystic Weird Stuff. This timeline feels wrong to be African colony-friendly, and I'm still thinking up a plausible reason why.

This is a fairly good example of what I am talking about, while the breakdown of european colonies in africa that you describe makes sense you hit the buffers with Egypt. Keeping Egypt Ottoman requires one of two options completely unrelated to your initial premise. Either the British never got set-up in India (securing a route to India was the driving force for the takeover of Egypt) long predating your divergence point or Egypt never attempted to modernise in the 1820's and 30's meaning no de-facto autonomy and no suez canal both strike me as unrelated points of divergence. As for reducing the number of European colonies in Africa without some sort of alternative colonization target I don't think this is feasible.

Originally Posted by Moe Lane

Europe - Western Europe against the Austrian Empire, which includes Italy. No Portugal; Benelux might as well be a French district. Sweden includes Norway, Finland, Iceland, and Greenland. Ottomans are holding out - and still own Greece - but worse every year. Grecian revolutionaries very Bryonic.

No Italian or Greek independence Ok I can buy that there is no immediate reason based upon the divergence why they wouldn't be but it is easily hand-waved. Nearly unified Scandinavia, almost true historically (or were some of these Danish territory?). The problem for me is the strong French empire, mostly because it depends upon British assistance. Despite occasional alliances of convenience primarily over the Ottoman empire or China, Britain and France were not exactly on good terms (there were several war scares between the 1850's and the 1890's) and the British were hardly likely to intervene in something that would weaken France even when they were on good terms. Secondly it is doubtful that Britain could have made a meaningful intervention if they had wanted to, the British army of the era was significantly overstretched. Consider the difficulty they had in raising the forces used in Egypt in 1883, changing policies and deployments on this scale definitely requires a major divergence to explain it.

Originally Posted by Moe Lane

Asia - Japan lost the Russo-Japanese War, but barely; it took Korea, the Phillipines and New Guinea a decade or two later, and is ripping off hunks of the Tai'ping Empire (along with the Nationalist Republic of China and the Socialist Republic of China, not to mention two pretenders to the Tai'ping Empire and the Siamese). India is quiet - Ghandi never left South Africa, and is currently raising all sorts of trouble there - and a little worried about all the ruckus going on elsewhere.

The Tai'ping empire is a good touch, an interesting alternative to communism if nothing else although like the lack of Greek and Italian independence it doesn't necessarily follow from the point of divergence. As for India while things might be quieter realistically, Ghandi was only part of a larger independence movement, it should still be going strong at least on a regional basis (actually given the postponed Great War which actually laid some of the ground work for Indian independence it might be gearing up to get ugly).

[Moe Lane]

Originally Posted by Frost

But at the risk of nitpicking the setting seems too 'busy'

Nah, I wouldn't call it nitpicky. All of that was just a first set of thoughts about what would be suitable exotic locales for Cliffhanger-style campaigns: I'm hardly wedded to any of it.

What I'm doing now is thinking about how the divergences in 1812 are altering what comes afterward, with a bias towards the more interesting results as opposed to the more realistically boring ones. Frex: Italy as part of the Austrian Empire is both interesting and not actually all that impossible, so it happens; Greece almost certainly didn't need Bryon to get its independence, but it sounds more cool that way, particularly if his great-granddaughter is currently on scene to finish the job. :)

[Xenarthral]

Originally Posted by Frost

Nearly unified Scandinavia, almost true historically (or were some of these Danish territory?).

Iceland was. Greenland still is. Finland was Russian. (Sweden keeping Finland
in 1809 is one of divergences that does not logically follow from the original
divergence.)
"Sweden includes..." rather than a Sweden-Norway union might need some
explanation too - the Norwegians would object (possibly the Finns as well).

[Ramidel]

"No Portugal?" Who got it? I ask this because it seems kind of...difficult for Spain to be able to take Portugal, due to the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance. (If Britain set up a "protectorate" after the failed Republican Revolution, now...Anglo-Brazilian high tension...)

[Moe Lane]

Originally Posted by Ramidel

"No Portugal?" Who got it?

I'm working on it, I'm working on it. :)

Same with the Scandinavian thing. And everything else, really.

[Ramidel]

Heh. That's what you get when you drop an idea into a school of piranha like this forum. ^_^

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

Originally Posted by Moe Lane

I worry sometimes about "Timeline-number" creep. At this rate, Infinity will know of 664,478 timelines by 2037. :)

This is why God invented the laptop so you can keep a scorecard in your backpack.