Accounting for Elemental Frequency

[Varyon]

This is a bit of an odd one. I'm currently working on revamping my old Wand Magic system into something more interesting (the old one was pretty dull, all things considered), which is going fairly well. The ins and outs aren't necessary at this time, but I'll note that it has 8 Elements - Fire, Water/Ice, Earth, Wind, Light, Dark, Healing/Life, and Poison/Undeath - along with a generic Neutral (sometimes called Force). The 8 actual Elements essentially all have +50% worth of built-in Enhancements compared to Neutral. Also, the spells would all be built as Powers - this is completely divorced from College Magic, RPM, etc.

One thing I've been considering is the idea of being able to reduce the cost of Elemental magic (only) by drawing on a source of the Element in the environment. For example, if attacked while attending to a cookfire, you could draw on that fire to help power your spell. This would probably be limited to half the maximum FP cost of the spell so you can't just draw on an inferno or similar to fully power ridiculously-powerful magic.

This issue here is that I want all the Elements to be roughly equal, hence the ~+50% for each when used for direct attacks, but the Elements aren't equally-available in nature. A fire requires you to have already set one (or be near one that's been set), while water requires you to either bring it with you or be close to a body of water, but earth and wind are basically everywhere. Light is easy to come by during the day, albeit not so much at night, since the light generated by fire would be more appropriate to consider Fire-elemental, but what about Dark? If that's just the absence of light, it's readily available at night. It can also make sense as specifically being shadow (Soul Reaver 2 did this for the Dark Reaver - the puzzle for activating the Forge for it involves simulating an Eclipse), but then it's arguably even more rare than Light (since Light has to be available to cast a shadow - note this wouldn't treat nighttime as simply being in the planet's shadow), but maybe you could bring them back more in line by having shadows cast by fire work for it. And then what about Healing/Life and Poison/Undeath? Maybe the former could be pulled out of nearby plants, but what would a source of the latter be, decaying flesh?

A large part of me is tempted to abandon the idea, as neat as it would be, and at best let Elemental Telekinesis function as something like Control for the Element in question (but I'm not a fan of Control's mechanics), due to the above issues. But I really like the concept, so I'm reaching out to the forum to see if anyone has a good idea for squaring this particular circle.

[Anaraxes]

You could handicap all of the elements by taking into account the nature and intensity of the element beyond just presence or volume. You can start a campfire anywhere, but that's not a volcano or a wildfire or a steel foundry.

For Earth, you can insist that it be natural, so concrete jungles aren't nearly so inviting, even if it's the same calcium carbonate in concrete as in the Cliffs of Dover. Make rock better than soil, since soil is contaminated with all sorts of organic material and lifeforms. Put the rock on a scale - maybe metaphoric is better than sedimentary. Perhaps gemstones are better than semiprecious better than garden-variety minerals.

For air, maybe purity and/or quantity count, not just presence. City streets have less than the countryside thanks to all the buildings taking up some of the nearby volume, and they're also more polluted, and the countryside isn't as good as a high promontory in the Rocky Mountains for some air beneath you as well. Or volume counts, which means higher windspeed, moving more air past the mage while they're casting. Hurricanes and tornadoes become great sources, should you manage to keep your ritual from being disrupted in the middle of one. The hazard of falling off that icy promontory at 23,000 feet in the mountains during a hurricane is a bonus for adventure. Jet aircraft become a good spot for magery; space stations are terrible.

Since all the elements now have an Environmental Limitation, there's a spot for the GM to put their thumb on the scale. There would be common, low-power sources that the PCs can easily arrange, while the high-powered stuff is harder to come by.

Players will of course note all the good sources and try to return there for their big magics, so GMs will have to be aware of their pull on the campaign arc.

[Flowergarden]

Love Anaraxes's ideas.
I would probably make it a leveled trait. So if you have a campfire it would give you no more than 1 per spell(or at all). Huge pyre would give maximum of 2. Etc. Active volcano would give sa much as you need.

I had this thing myself. But mine gave +1/d of damage. And was something of an environmental bonus. So if you are in an active volcanic region pyromancers would get +1. If in the rain - water. Etc.
But elements had different costs. And damage, so 1d-1 of lightning and 1d+3 of crushing were kinda the same points. You can do something the same, if you want to

Or weather conditions. Like the stronger the wind - the stronger wind magic is. (Now everyone want some weather sence) Or just high elevation would give bonuses to wind magic.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

You could handicap all of the elements by taking into account the nature and intensity of the element beyond just presence or volume. You can start a campfire anywhere, but that's not a volcano or a wildfire or a steel foundry.

For Earth, you can insist that it be natural, so concrete jungles aren't nearly so inviting, even if it's the same calcium carbonate in concrete as in the Cliffs of Dover. Make rock better than soil, since soil is contaminated with all sorts of organic material and lifeforms. Put the rock on a scale - maybe metaphoric is better than sedimentary. Perhaps gemstones are better than semiprecious better than garden-variety minerals.

For air, maybe purity and/or quantity count, not just presence. City streets have less than the countryside thanks to all the buildings taking up some of the nearby volume, and they're also more polluted, and the countryside isn't as good as a high promontory in the Rocky Mountains for some air beneath you as well. Or volume counts, which means higher windspeed, moving more air past the mage while they're casting. Hurricanes and tornadoes become great sources, should you manage to keep your ritual from being disrupted in the middle of one. The hazard of falling off that icy promontory at 23,000 feet in the mountains during a hurricane is a bonus for adventure. Jet aircraft become a good spot for magery; space stations are terrible.

Since all the elements now have an Environmental Limitation, there's a spot for the GM to put their thumb on the scale. There would be common, low-power sources that the PCs can easily arrange, while the high-powered stuff is harder to come by.

Players will of course note all the good sources and try to return there for their big magics, so GMs will have to be aware of their pull on the campaign arc.

Yeah, one thing I was considering was finding a way to limit each Element so you can only draw from sources of comparable rarity... I'm just not sure what that rarity should be. I also want it to deplete the source, at least temporarily (for Earth and Water this is just straight depletion, but for Fire or Light it would be more something that decreases the intensity for a set amount of time).

One idea was to start with Light, and set everything else up to be similarly-limited. For Light, I'm thinking the minimum light level would be around 500 lux (where +1 would be on the "Illumination Levels" chart in Powers: Enhanced Senses). I'm thinking for depletion purposes, 1 FP would reduce the illumination level in a single hex by 1 step, 2 FP would reduce it in that hex and each surrounding hex by 1 step, 3 FP would be a further -1 to the central hex, 4 would spread the -1 to further adjacent hexes (that is, those 2 hexes away from the central one), etc. The minimum level of illumination it could reduce it to would be +0 (100 lux), so that 500 lux would only allow you to pull up to 2 FP, etc. I think that would be roughly equivalent to the -30% of "Direct Sunlight" (assuming the ~400 lux of sunrise/sunset counts as "Direct Sunlight), so I'd need to set the others to -30%... but I'm not certain exactly how to go about that.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Flowergarden

Love Anaraxes's ideas.
I would probably make it a leveled trait. So if you have a campfire it would give you no more than 1 per spell(or at all). Huge pyre would give maximum of 2. Etc. Active volcano would give sa much as you need.

I had this thing myself. But mine gave +1/d of damage. And was something of an environmental bonus. So if you are in an active volcanic region pyromancers would get +1. If in the rain - water. Etc.
But elements had different costs. And damage, so 1d-1 of lightning and 1d+3 of crushing were kinda the same points. You can do something the same, if you want to

Or weather conditions. Like the stronger the wind - the stronger wind magic is. (Now everyone want some weather sence) Or just high elevation would give bonuses to wind magic.

Sorry, missed this post earlier. Yeah, I think for Wind magic, requiring a strong breeze of some sort would be appropriate. It would likely becalm the local area similarly to how I see Light dimming the local area, but not below a certain threshold (Light can't dim enough to give darkness penalties while Dark can't completely eliminate an object's shadow, Fire can't reduce a flame below smoldering - and probably not even quite that far - while Water could certainly reduce a torrential downpour but at best maybe down to a sprinkle in the small local area). But I don't have a concrete idea on what this minimum level should be, or what the steps look like (Light's easy, since it just calls for expanding the Illumination Table, but for the rest I'm largely at a loss).

[Flowergarden]

Hm, I remember two tables with Lux, one from Basic set, another from Power: Enhanced Senses. And they are different.

I remember one system of magic (from some comics I don't remember name of). All magic takes something from the world and moves it somewhere. Like sharpness of the sword or pressure of the mountain.
Skill changes how fast and how much you can move. And how big of a distance you can take it from.
Don't remember everything, but maybe it would give you some ideas.

I don't think that depletion is needed in all situations.
For example, strong wind. If you take it from one hex... Its place would be taken by another "hex of wind". As with light.
With fire, water - yes. Lightning exists only for a second so there is no difference.
Like if you reduce strong wind with a couple of spells... It would be strange. But maybe it's only me.

But if you have some phosphorescent rocks, it can be a good depletable light thingy. Literally powerstones) There is one in fantasy tech, if I remember correctly.

Question is, what to do with earth, especially in medieval setting. Maybe mage need to stand on the earth, like that guy in greek legend. Maybe he even need to be barefoot for better connection.
With life it's easy. Just wither some plants, or animals, or people. Like attack that decrease next spell cost after doing damage.
What about death? It can be stronger near graves... Or you can carry bones with you as a depletable source.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Flowergarden

Hm, I remember two tables with Lux, one from Basic set, another from Power: Enhanced Senses. And they are different.

Checking through my most recent copies of Basic - 10th printing - isn't showing anything relevant when searching for either "lux" or "illumin". To my knowledge, P:ES is the only published work that has had an Illumination Table, although IIRC Anthony had a pretty solid one on his site back before that came out, and the two did indeed not match (although I think they were relatively close).

Originally Posted by Flowergarden

I don't think that depletion is needed in all situations.
For example, strong wind. If you take it from one hex... Its place would be taken by another "hex of wind". As with light.
With fire, water - yes. Lightning exists only for a second so there is no difference.

My concern is that, with a functionally-self-renewing resource - light from the sun (or any source that counts), wind, water in the form of rain or a flowing river, fire (you're taking the flames, not the fuel), and similar - you can just keep drawing on it without any issue, while for other sources - a still pool of water (or a chunk of ice), stones, etc - you're actually limited to what's available. Considering some things don't really have a renewable version, like Earth, it feels like there should be some impact. Plus, I like the idea of a spell dimming the light (albeit not enough for darkness penalties), shrinking a shadow, calming the wind, etc in a limited area after pulling from that element.

All that said... part of me is considering having there just be some "pure form of [Element]" that is rare but equally available for all the Elements (maybe even have Neutral working there), then allowing characters to buy an ability that lets them treat natural sources of a particular element as though it were "pure," with the cost scaling with how common the sources they can draw from are (someone who can only pull from flowing streams of relatively-pure water wouldn't have to pay as much as someone who can do that as well as pull from stagnant pools, salty water from the ocean, etc).

Incidentally, the poison/undeath Element I'm thinking of being something like decay/consumption (while I initially came up with it long before I heard of the Aurora webcomic, I must admit the Consumptive Element employed by the Void Dragon in that is having some influence on the concept). So something once-alive but now rotting or otherwise decomposing could be a good natural source. Ambulatory undead would not be, however, no more than you could pull the Life element from one person to put it in another - pretty much anything advanced enough to count as an animal is immune to being drawn from like this (which is important - living things are essentially Life Elementals while undead are essentially Poison/Undeath Elementals, but you can have beings - possibly even humans - that are attuned to a different Element, with their element healing them just as Life heals most people and their opposite Element causing increased wounding; such entities are actually wounded by Life magic, which can poetically be compared to roots breaking through stone, living beings consuming air and water, etc).

[Flowergarden]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Checking through my most recent copies of Basic - 10th printing - isn't showing anything relevant when searching for either "lux" or "illumin".

Strange, I don't see it either. But there should be another one somewhere. Or maybe I mixed something.

My concern is that, with a functionally-self-renewing resource - light from the sun (or any source that counts), wind, water in the form of rain or a flowing river, fire (you're taking the flames, not the fuel), and similar - you can just keep drawing on it without any issue, while for other sources - a still pool of water (or a chunk of ice), stones, etc - you're actually limited to what's available.

Probablem is, you can't make oceans disappear. It would be strange and water magic would be illegal. Where is our river? Damned watermages. *Sad village noises*. But if magic is rare enough it shouldn't be that big of a deal.
You can make elements like mediums. Like the sand guy from Naruto (i don't know his name, never watched, just know about the concept). Fire will go out, but stone can survive(or turn to dust, becoming useless). And sand would probably dissipate. And you would need repeated dissipation of sand in one area for it to collect in big enough amount to be useful again. This situation make an interesting dynamics.
Just an idea that sounded better in my mind.
[/QUOTE]
Considering some things don't really have a renewable version, like Earth, it feels like there should be some impact. [/QUOTE]
Don't see any problem here. If you aren't depleting tons of earth per spell. If you are, It would be the fastest way of digging, heh

Plus, I like the idea of a spell dimming the light (albeit not enough for darkness penalties), shrinking a shadow, calming the wind, etc in a limited area after pulling from that element.

Ah, yes, sounds cool. If you want it, than do it)

All that said... part of me is considering having there just be some "pure form of [Element]" that is rare but equally available for all the Elements (maybe even have Neutral working there), then allowing characters to buy an ability that lets them treat natural sources of a particular element as though it were "pure," with the cost scaling with how common the sources they can draw from are (someone who can only pull from flowing streams of relatively-pure water wouldn't have to pay as much as someone who can do that as well as pull from stagnant pools, salty water from the ocean, etc).

Salt, it's a famous manablocker. You can treat salt water as something you can't use at all. (Just an idea) Salted earth now sounds like a strategy.
Depleted elementium sounds like a)essencial stuff. b) crystals. Or liquids. Or crystalic liquids

Incidentally, the poison/undeath Element I'm thinking of being something like decay/consumption (while I initially came up with it long before I heard of the Aurora webcomic, I must admit the Consumptive Element employed by the Void Dragon in that is having some influence on the concept). So something once-alive but now rotting or otherwise decomposing could be a good natural source.

Oh, poisonous swamp element?) It would probably better be called decay. Maybe not, dunno.

Ambulatory undead would not be, however, no more than you could pull the Life element from one person to put it in another - pretty much anything advanced enough to count as an animal is immune to being drawn from like this (which is important - living things are essentially Life Elementals while undead are essentially Poison/Undeath Elementals, but you can have beings - possibly even humans - that are attuned to a different Element, with their element healing them just as Life heals most people and their opposite Element causing increased wounding; such entities are actually wounded by Life magic, which can poetically be compared to roots breaking through stone, living beings consuming air and water, etc).

Love the idea of "everything is an elemental"
Hm, what about sacrifices? Can you sacrifice a lamb? A fire elemental? Can you make a self sacrifice of your respective element?

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I'm just not sure what that rarity should be.

Well, that's one of those "whatever you want it to be" factors. Fireball-slinging dungeon crawlers to secret magic to magic so rare just performing one ritual is the climactic point of the plot.

I also want it to deplete the source, at least temporarily

I'd also find that idea appealing. Keep in mind that can be a useful effect, as the fire mages go cast an arbitrarily large spell to save a city from the volcano, stop a hurricane dead in its tracks, or strip all the topsoil from the enemy nation's heartland, or just bury their capital by undermining it. PCs will find a way to make the "drawback" work to their advantage at times. (Which is probably good in general, as it inspires creativity. Also, I assume mages have a levelled strength trait that limits how much they can channel at once, so volcano absorbing is probably beyond the PCs. But one of the factors to keep in mind when you're tuning the volumes required and mage strength with the desired campaign power level.)