Shield Rush in DFRPG

[lachimba]

The Shield Rush rules are different in DFRPG.


Just to clarify

Does the attacker now take damage -DB from a successful (and perhaps blocked) shield rush?

In GURPS the attacker's shield would have taken the damage.

[ArchonShiva]

Blocked shield rush leads to no damage. Successful shield rush is damage-DB for attacker. Defender’s DB doesn’t matter because not blocking it means they failed to get their shield into position.

[Kromm]

In a slam, you use DX, Brawling, or Sumo Wrestling to hit.

You roll your thrust-2 crushing damage on your foe, with a bonus per die equal to the "Size" modifier on the Size and Speed/Range Table that corresponds to the number of hexes you ran, looked up in the "Linear Measurement" column. You can get a bonus to damage from Brawling (+1 per die at DX+2 or better) or Sumo Wrestling (+1 per die at DX+1, +2 per die at DX+2 or better). You can also use All-Out Attack (Strong) to increase your damage: the better of +2, or +1 per die.

Your foe rolls their thrust-2 crushing damage on you, also with a bonus per die equal to the "Size" modifier on the Size and Speed/Range Table that corresponds to the number of hexes you ran, looked up in the "Linear Measurement" column.

Example: Grükuk Kzaash (Adventurers, p. 119) has thrust 1d+1 thanks to her ST 14 and Striking ST 2. She's caught equipped only with her leather armor and brass knuckles (No encumbrance) at the tavern when a humongous spider (ST 19, thrust 2d-1) erupts from the cellar. Not one to refuse a challenge, angered by having her downtime interrupted, and prone to showing her grit, she decides to try to slam it back down the cellar stairs.

She has Brawling-15, which is at DX+1: good enough to make it easier to hit, not high enough to help damage. She decides that against something this big, an All-Out Attack is warranted, damn the risk (she isn't very afraid of spider venom anyway).

Unencumbered, she runs her full Move 6, which is between "5 yards" and "7 yards" on the table; one uses the higher value in this case, so 7 yards means a "Size" modifier of +3. This makes her damage thrust (1d+1), -2 for a slam, +3 per die for speed, +2 for All-Out Attack (Strong): 1d+4 if she hits.

The spider has Brawling-15, which is at DX+2, and that would help if it were making the slam, but it does nothing here. Neither does Grükuk's All-Out Attack. The spider just uses thrust (2d-1), -2 for a slam, +3 per die for speed: 2d+3 if Grükuk hits.

Grükuk does indeed hit. She rolls a "4" for damage and does 8 points; with the spider's DR 3, that's 5 points of injury. The spider rolls a "7" and does 10 points; with Grükuk's DR 2 armor, that's 8 points of injury (a major wound for her . . . thank goodness for HT 14 and High Pain Threshold). Slams use damage (not injury) to decide who falls down; Grükuk rolled lower but not half as much or worse, so she must make a DX roll to avoid falling down. With DX 14, this is easy. She ends up in close combat with a spider.

—

In a shield rush, you use Shield to hit.

You roll your thrust-2 crushing damage on your foe, with a bonus per die equal to the "Size" modifier on the Size and Speed/Range Table that corresponds to the number of hexes you ran, looked up in the "Linear Measurement" column. You get a bonus to damage equal to your shield DB. You get an extra +1 if your shield has a spike. You can also use All-Out Attack (Strong) to increase your damage: the better of +2, or +1 per die.

Your foe rolls their thrust-2 crushing damage on you, also with a bonus per die equal to the "Size" modifier on the Size and Speed/Range Table that corresponds to the number of hexes you ran, looked up in the "Linear Measurement" column. This is penalized by an amount equal to your shield DB.

Example: All healed up after the tavern incident, Grükuk and her friends go into the cellar to hunt spiders. Grükuk is fully equipped this time, and wants to win a little honor back. She shield rushes the nearest humongous spider. She has Shield-16, which makes it easier to hit, and a medium shield with a spike. She decides not to All-Out Attack this time.

Lightly encumbered, she runs her full Move 4, which is between "3 yards" and "5 yards" on the table, rounding up to a "Size" modifier of +2. This makes her damage thrust (1d+1), -2 for a slam, +2 per die for speed, +2 for her DB 2 shield, and another +1 for the spike: again, 1d+4 if she hits.

The spider has the same stats as its sister. The spider uses thrust (2d-1), -2 for a slam, +2 per die for speed, and -2 for Grükuk's DB 2 shield: 2d-1 if Grükuk hits.

Grükuk hits again (or this example would be boring). She rolls the same "4" for damage and does 8 points; with the spider's DR 3, that's 5 points of injury. The spider rolls the same "7" and does 6 points; with Grükuk's DR 2 armor, that's 4 points of injury. Rushes use damage (not injury) to decide who falls down; Grükuk rolled higher but not half as much or worse, the spider must make a DX roll to avoid falling down. With DX 13, it succeeds. Grükuk again ends up in close combat with a spider, but this time she hasn't done an All-Out Attack; her plan is to slice and dice with her kukri.

—

The moral: Don't run into walls. A shield will help some, but slams and bashes are best directed at enemies of your own general size and strength.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The moral: Don't run into walls. A shield will help some, but slams and bashes are best directed at enemies of your own general size and strength.

... or smaller/weaker ones, surely? Replace the opponent with an ice weasel and Grükuk would have shattered it. Assuming it didn't successfully dodge.

I assume the spider didn't dodge because it had some sort of instinctive spider tactical thought of "I can take that disgusting endoskeletal horror DOWN."

[Kalzazz]

I thought her shields DB protected her in a slam?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I thought her shields DB protected her in a slam?

If you shield rush, your DB subtracts from enemy damage as in my example. If you slam, you are by definition not using a shield and so DB isn't relevant. If someone else shield rushes or slams you, your DB adds to your active defense and makes it more likely to succeed . . . but if you fail, your shield isn't between you and your attacker, and doesn't do a darned thing.

The basic options are:

• I slam somebody else with my body. That's a basic slam. If I have a shield and choose not to use it when I slam, its DB is irrelevant. If they have a shield, its only effect is to add DB to their active defense.
• I slam somebody else with my shield. That turns the slam into a shield rush. My shield DB adds to my damage, subtracts from theirs. If they have a shield, its only effect is to add DB to their active defense.
• Somebody else slams me with their body. That's a basic slam. If I have a shield, its DB adds to my active defense roll but that's it – there's no effect on damage.
• Somebody else slams me with their shield. That's a shield rush. Their shield DB adds to their damage, subtracts from mine. If I have a shield, its DB adds to my active defense roll but that's it – there's no effect on damage.

In other words, defenders against slams and rushes see the benefits of DB on their all-or-nothing active defense roll. If that fails, the DB isn't relevant because the shield isn't in place. If that succeeds, there's no need to treat DB as DR because the whole attack was avoided.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by martinl

... or smaller/weaker ones, surely?

Picking on the weak is a time-honored delver tradition that needs no mention. I've yet to see a delver discard the +666 Sword of Murdering and use a toothpick just to give the kobolds a fighting chance.

Originally Posted by martinl

I assume the spider didn't dodge because it had some sort of instinctive spider tactical thought of "I can take that disgusting endoskeletal horror DOWN."

Or perhaps instinctive knowledge of "Haha, that's going to hurt you a lot more than it's going to hurt me! I'll stand here and let you smash yourself!" When I GM, I generally have massive monsters just let delvers slam them without bothering to defend, because it's like a free shot at the delvers. And there's a certain joy to watching puny two-legged humans try to knock down dragons, only to knock themselves out cold.

It's possible to build a character around shield rushes, but that calls for a large shield with a spike, plus high ST and Striking ST, plus Weapon Master (Shield) for a further per-die bonus. A knight who dumps all 60 advantage points into ST +3 [30], Striking ST 2 [10], and Weapon Master (Shield) [20] starts with thrust 2d-1 and a basic slam of 2d-3, and will be adding +2 per die with a shield, for 2d+1. With a DB 3 large shield and a spike, the rush will be 2d+5. In decent armor, the knight will probably be managing Move 3 and +1 per die, for 2d+7 (average 14) . . . which is competitive with a ST 39-40 monster rolling thrust-2 of 4d-1 and adding +1 per die for speed but subtracting 3 for DB, for 4d (average 14). Being able to productively slam dragons is kind of cool.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I thought her shields DB protected her in a slam?

Originally Posted by Kromm

The spider has the same stats as its sister. The spider uses thrust (2d-1), -2 for a slam, +2 per die for speed, and -2 for Grükuk's DB 2 shield: 2d-1 if Grükuk hits.

The spider rolls the same "7" and does 6 points; with Grükuk's DR 2 armor, that's 4 points of injury.

I think you were just looking for that reduction in the wrong part of the post - see the bold section not the underlined section.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Kromm

It's possible to build a character around shield rushes...

Or monsters. Specialized goblin "bulldozers" could be a lot of fun in a room full of spiked pits...

(Unfortunately, Ice weasels cannot really use spiked shields.)

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by martinl

(Unfortunately, Ice weasels cannot really use spiked shields.)

I have no idea . . . I've never seen an ice weasel. There might be semi-upright ones with clever little paws who do use shields.