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Old 10-14-2019, 12:38 PM   #61
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Schrödinger's Hobgoblin infinite loop

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Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
Yes.

Dodging is already worded that way, as an action taken while moving. You cannot really move without picking an option, and there is no option that just says "move" without an action attached to it. And during the interval between moving and your chance to act, you don't get to change anything.

Defend may not be as explicitly worded, but we're all pretty sure the mechanics of it were always intended to be the same as Dodge. They are two sides of the same coin.
I think that wording for Dodge is an awful mistake, and would not want it to spread to Defend.

The results of requiring Dodge or Defend to be declared during movement can be very ugly. Basically they become terrible choices in many cases (not that they are very good options anyway), especially for people moving before their foes get to move.

e.g. If you can't change out of defensive options, people who pre-declare Dodge will tend to be the last choice for anyone to try a ranged attack on, and instead will tend to attract melee attacks like flies, since they would not be allowed to fight back or even Defend. Similarly, people who pre-declare Defend will tend to be ignored as melee targets or as potential melee threats, and foes will position to allow missile fire against them instead. It's much gamey-er than TFT initiative already is, and results in people being unable to do anything appropriate for a whole turn not just because they're out of position, but because they were forced to commit during movement. Being hacked to death while stuck "dodging" attackers who were 5 hexes away when you chose to Dodge, is pretty miserable. The effect really stinks but can be mitigated by people just almost never choosing to dodge or defend except in very limited circumstances.

Or... you can just play the way original Wizard and Advanced Wizard made clear was the thing to do, where you can choose to defend or dodge whenever based on how far you moved.

Similarly, you can also avoid all the issues by saying taking an action on your adjDX means you're taking that action (and can't change your mind and poll every target about whether they're going to defend themselves if you attack each of them or not).
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Old 10-14-2019, 03:23 PM   #62
kjamma4
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicagoland Area, Illinois
Default Re: Schrödinger's Hobgoblin infinite loop

Having it be a reaction (ala Dungeons & Dragons) works perfectly.

Attacker announces his attack, defender states her reaction to that attack - dice are rolled. No loop.
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Old 10-14-2019, 03:29 PM   #63
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Schrödinger's Hobgoblin infinite loop

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Originally Posted by kjamma4 View Post
Having it be a reaction (ala Dungeons & Dragons) works perfectly.

Attacker announces his attack, defender states her reaction to that attack - dice are rolled. No loop.
That is functionally how I think most people are interpreting RAW, with the caveat that you can't dodge/defend if you violated the relevant restrictions during the movement phase.
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Old 10-14-2019, 05:37 PM   #64
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Schrödinger's Hobgoblin infinite loop

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
I think that wording for Dodge is an awful mistake, and would not want it to spread to Defend.

The results of requiring Dodge or Defend to be declared during movement can be very ugly. [snip]

e.g. If you can't change out of defensive options... [snip]

Or... you can just play the way original Wizard and Advanced Wizard made clear was the thing to do, where you can choose to defend or dodge whenever based on how far you moved.
I really don't think that this wording is the problem, but if it's confusing anyone it could be expendable. As it stands, it's really just "color commentary." Because the rest of the rules do make it clear you still can change your defensive options later in the turn, depending on how far you moved, even if everyone isn't recognizing that's how it works and that's what the rest of the rules say. Maybe mentioning you are Dodging as you move is just meant to be a "reminder" to the archers looking for targets that you have kept open the chance to Dodge if and when they fire on you, without being a commitment to do so under any of the RAW, old or new.

This part of the game is no different now than it was under original Melee and Wizard. I think it (turn sequence, actions, and changing options) was explained and presented better in Wizard and Advanced Melee than its current wording in the new manuals, but that lack of detail in the new ITL doesn't mean any of this has changed.

At the hub of all this is three things: (1) movement is not an "action", (2) you aren't locked into declaring any action until it's your turn to act, and (3) your turn to act can come early, as one of a few permissible reaction to an attack on you.
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Old 10-14-2019, 10:23 PM   #65
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Schrödinger's Hobgoblin infinite loop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
I really don't think that this wording is the problem, but if it's confusing anyone it could be expendable. As it stands, it's really just "color commentary." Because the rest of the rules do make it clear you still can change your defensive options later in the turn, depending on how far you moved, even if everyone isn't recognizing that's how it works and that's what the rest of the rules say. Maybe mentioning you are Dodging as you move is just meant to be a "reminder" to the archers looking for targets that you have kept open the chance to Dodge if and when they fire on you, without being a commitment to do so under any of the RAW, old or new.

This part of the game is no different now than it was under original Melee and Wizard. I think it (turn sequence, actions, and changing options) was explained and presented better in Wizard and Advanced Melee than its current wording in the new manuals, but that lack of detail in the new ITL doesn't mean any of this has changed.

At the hub of all this is three things: (1) movement is not an "action", (2) you aren't locked into declaring any action until it's your turn to act, and (3) your turn to act can come early, as one of a few permissible reaction to an attack on you.
Yes, exactly. I don't have a problem with that Dodge wording as color. I have a problem with people reading it as a rule that means figures must declare Dodge during movement, and that they can't change into or out of Dodging during their turn even if haven't acted yet. That IS a change from the original rules.

I agree it wasn't an intentional change (or at least not a well-thought out one, if it was), but as we can see from some other people's reasoning above and in other threads, they do think it is intended as a rule limiting Dodge to something that must be declared and committed to during movement. Which is why I think wording it that was was an awful mistake.
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