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Old 07-23-2014, 11:55 AM   #1
Arcanjo7Sagi
 
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Default Another problem with Heat

For years I have searched the forum for topics on topics related to Heat rules and Temperature Tolerance.

Here's just a few I found today:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=123318

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=100846

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=120957

But of course there a lot more out there.

And, of course, the FAQ:

Quote:
3.2.21 How do Immunity to Metabolic Hazards and Temperature Tolerance relate to each other when dealing with heat and cold?

When talking about heat and cold, there are three different effects to consider:

1. "Doesn't suffer FP or HP loss due to hypothermia or hyperthermia, which are forms of system failure tied to having a metabolism."
2. "Doesn't suffer from the negative effects of ambient heat and cold on the material structure; e.g., freezing solid, melting, and catching fire."
3. "Doesn't suffer damage from directed heat and cold attacks."

Immunity to Metabolic Hazards provides (1). Temperature Tolerance gives a degree of protection against (2) and, if you have a metabolism, some protection against (1), too – that's why Temperature Tolerance states, "such as FP or HP loss," and not, "that is, FP or HP loss." Only Damage Resistance offers (3).

The problem is that the rules give few cases of (2). There's the fact that Temperature Tolerance sets a "burning threshold" under the intense heat rules (p. B434) and that's about it. There should be similar rules for freezing solid and for melting, and even for being vaporized, but there aren't. The point is, these things aren't metabolic effects or attacks.

The answer, then, is that to avoid melting, catching fire, or freezing solid, you need a lot of Temperature Tolerance. Without it, all these things can happen to you even if Immunity to Metabolic Hazards protects you completely from hypothermia or hyperthermia. Immunity to Metabolic Hazards only protects against the systemic effects of hypothermia or hyperthermia – not against your body's structure failing in extreme cold or heat. And neither trait protects against directed cold or heat attacks; those call for DR.

As for machines, they have "freezing up" and "overheating" thresholds related to materials properties – a variation on (2), above. Having Immunity to Metabolic Hazards means that they don't suffer hypothermia and hyperthermia, which are tied to metabolism. It doesn't mean that heat and cold have no effect at all. That's why machines might still have Temperature Tolerance.
I'm aware of all that.

But there are some things that bother me for YEARS.

First of all, Supers game. If some player want to "take a bath in the Sun", just like Superman, he will need lot's of Damage Resistance and Damage Reduction and maybe Radiation Tolerance. That's fine by me. The problem, in this case, is Temperate Tolerance.

According to wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun) the corona is around 5 milion Kelvin and the core is around 15-20 milion. The PC would need milions invested in Temperature Tolerance for that.

Even ignoring the "bathing possibility" in the Sun, a "super-human" that could live the Crystalloid home environment (Underground Adventures) would need HUNDREDS of points in Temperature Tolerance, almoust a THOUSAND.

I've noticed that some players find the cost prohibitive. In the topics above, there are some alternative rules proposed for a cheaper version of Temperature Tolerance.

Regardless of the point cost, there is another problem.

Quote:
There's the fact that Temperature Tolerance sets a "burning threshold" under the intense heat rules (p. B434) and that's about it. There should be similar rules for freezing solid and for melting, and even for being vaporized, but there aren't. The point is, these things aren't metabolic effects or attacks.

The answer, then, is that to avoid melting, catching fire, or freezing solid, you need a lot of Temperature Tolerance.
What about a Air or Fire Elemental? Or someone who has Body of Air of Body of Fire (at least in concept)? I mean, maybe a "super air elemental" would need Temperature Tolerance (cold) to avoid freezing solid. That's make sense. But why he would need Temperature Tolerance (Heat)? He is already beyond melting, as far I know.

Am I missing something?


Anyway, thanks and sorry for any english mistakes!

Leandro

Last edited by Arcanjo7Sagi; 07-23-2014 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 07-23-2014, 03:29 PM   #2
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Default Re: Another problem with Heat

Temperature Tolerance is badly priced. At low levels, it's fine as a mundane advantage, but after that it just isn't worth it. I use a house rule that Immunity to Cold and Heat (Infinite TT) is [30], and for a human [15] for each side. I saw it somewhere on the boards. It breaks it up so TT is 35-36 levels total, and a race starts with six levels free.
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Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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Old 07-23-2014, 04:35 PM   #3
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Default Re: Another problem with Heat

As long as its a supers game:

Temprature tolerance 10
Damage Resistance 10 (Heat/cold only)
Cosmic Modular Ability (Physical abilities, reflexive, only to change your base temprature threshold) ~10

For ~30 points you can exist in any temprature:

Why this build:
I am counting 'base temprature threshold' as a 1 point perk, when its normally a 0 point feature. This is how you can make frost giants who can tolerate the frozen north, but sweat and die in 20 degree weather.

The Temprature tolerance is to make sure that a stiff breeze at a high or low temprature does not kill you (Like say you were on mars enjoying the nice high noon tempratures 20 celcius, and get a good gust from the north -100celicus). Some parts of your body will be facing the -100 celcius breeze, and others the 20 celcius day.

The damage resistance is to make sure that you can tolerate sudden harmful shifts long enough for your cosmic modular ability to shift the average again. IE while working on neptune you accidentally crack the methane sheath on a gas vent and get a sudden blast of superheated (relatively) gaseous oxygen blasted in your face.
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Old 07-23-2014, 11:14 PM   #4
Refplace
 
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Default Re: Another problem with Heat

I like Starlayers build.
It reminds me of Adaptation from V&V (think thats where it was) and could work in a Supers game were some supers can handle extreme environments but not direct attacks as well.
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Old 07-24-2014, 10:49 AM   #5
Arcanjo7Sagi
 
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Default Re: Another problem with Heat

Here are some alternatives:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langy View Post
Here's an expansion on Erhnam's pricing for Temperature Tolerance, giving actual temperatures and a way to easily set non-default temperature ranges. Temperature tolerance in this system has absolutely nothing to do with HT.

Code:
T.Level      Temperature
0            Absolute zero
1            -400 degrees
2            -325 degrees
3            -250 degrees
4            -175 degrees
5            -100 degrees
6            -80 degrees
7            -60 degrees
8            -40 degrees
9            -30 degrees
10           -20 degrees
11           -10 degrees
12           0 degrees
13           10 degrees
14           20 degrees
15           35 degrees
16           50 degrees
17           60 degrees
18           70 degrees
19           80 degrees
20           90 degrees
21           100 degrees
22           125 degrees
23           150 degrees
24           200 degrees
25           300 degrees
26           500 degrees
27           700 degrees
28           1,000 degrees
29           1,500 degrees
30           2,000 degrees
31           3,000 degrees
32           5,000 degrees
33           7,000 degrees
34           10,000 degrees
35           Greater than 10,000 degrees
Normal temperature tolerance is T.Level 15 to 20 (45 to 95 degrees). As a feature, a character can have any 6 T.Level wide temperatures as their 'baseline'. Extending temperature tolerance costs 1 point per increase in width. Thus, the following advantages can exist (for a human):

Temperature Tolerance (Extremely Cold) [15]: Absolute zero
Temperature Tolerance (Very Cold) [10]: -100 degrees
Temperature Tolerance (Cold) [5]: -20 degrees
Temperature Tolerance (Normal) [0] 35 to 90 degrees
Temperature Tolerance (Hot) [5]: 300 degrees
Temperature Tolerance (Very Hot) [10]: 2,000 degrees
Temperature Tolerance (Extremely Hot) [15]: No upper limit

Up to -4 points in Temperature Intolerance is available, reducing a character's tolerable temperature width. For example, a character that lives in a star's photosphere and can't exist outside of that temperature range would be able to subsist on a 7,000 to 10,000 degree F range. That's T.Level's 33-34. This gives the character the full -4 points of Temperature Intolerance. Another character might be able to live in a star's photosphere, but can also live at higher and lower temperatures - say, 2,000 degrees and up. That's T.Level's 30 to 35, which is the full 'normal' range. This character suffers no point cost for his temperature range.
And

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicfish View Post
This is one of those areas where it would help if GURPS used some type of exponential scaling by levels. If you did the old 1/2/5 scaling then you would have:

Level 0: 55º range
Level 1: 55º+12ºx1 = 67º range
Level 2: 55º+12ºx2 = 79º range
Level 3: 55º+12ºx5 = 115º range
Level 4: 55º+12ºx10 = 175º range
Level 5: 55º+12ºx20 = 275º range
Level 6: 55º+12ºx50 = 655º range
Level 7: 55º+12ºx100 = 1255º range
Level 8: 55º+12ºx200 = 2455º range
Level 9: 55º+12ºx500 = 6055º range
Level 10: 55º+12ºx1000 = 12,055º range

With that kind of scheme the "realistic" human range limits (Levels 0-2) are unchanged from canon, but higher levels give enough range that your robot would spend only 7-8 points for the kind of range you are looking for, a reasonable cost for what is going to be a rarely significant advantage.

Of course, you also have to consider that in addition to immunity from the slow damage from heat that you probably also have some kind of resistance to fire damage and such, but that can be purchased separately.
And

Quote:
Originally Posted by NineDaysDead View Post
I think I'd probably use the Size and Speed/Range Table (p.550), simply expanding the temperature range by a fixed amount without using HT at all:

Code:
Points   Additional degrees to 55ºF temperature range:
  [1]         +15ºF
  [2]         +20ºF
  [3]         +30ºF
  [4]         +50ºF
  [5]         +70ºF
  [6]         +100ºF
  [7]         +150ºF
  [8]         +200ºF
  [9]         +300ºF
  [10]       +500ºF
  [11]       +700ºF
  [12]       +1,000ºF
  [13]       +1,500ºF
  [14]       +2,000ºF
  [15]       +3,000ºF
  etc.
Continue this progression indefinitely, with each 10x increase in Temperature costing [+6] points. Thus +10,000ºF would cost 18 points.
Maybe something like Radiation Tolerance Progression.



But anyway, again, what about the Air/Fire Elemental? Temperature Tolerance make sense for "normal people", machines, etc., to avoid melting, freezing, bla bla bla. But a Air/Fire Elemental or something like that could freeze, of course, but it's beyond melting or something like that.
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Old 07-24-2014, 07:33 PM   #6
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Default Re: Another problem with Heat

Langy's method is the one I use (I think with some tiny changes). For an elemental like Fire or Air, you can just buy Immunity to Heat using Langy's table. But I'm not sure if they are actually immune. They can definitely sustain much higher temperatures, but at a certain point they stop being gas and become plasma (i think? can't remember my sciences). Instead, give them most levels, but not quite immune. Same for Ice elementals. They can sustain most cold, but probably not absolute zero.
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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