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Old 07-03-2010, 07:23 PM   #31
Lupo
 
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Default Re: [RULES] Rule of 16!

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Originally Posted by Anaxim View Post
All that WAS brought up.
Thing is, he's in denial of his own munchkinism. He sees the value in resistible spells, but not the point of being unable to overwhelm any single opponent he wishes if he ever had a spell in it's 30s (Which is highly unlikely, anyway. He has plenty else to spend those points at)
He's a ****.
He may not be totally wrong...

Rule of 16 is not a big deal to me, but let's admit that:

- Resistible spells kind of suck (because of distance penalties, and the fact that you often risk to waste your turn, pay your energy, and accomplish nothing; with a parried attack, you at least force your opponent to use his defences)

- Wizards with their spells at level 30 are very rare. Even with 300-400 points, most wizard will have 20 as their base level, and a couple of favorite spells at 25 (and they'll pay lots of points for it) that common.

IMHO Rule of 16 could have been dropped without a great impact of GURPS 4e.

The "Rule of 17+" perks are kind of a way to do so...
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Old 07-03-2010, 07:48 PM   #32
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Default Re: [RULES] Rule of 16!

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Originally Posted by Anaxim View Post
Friend states:
Not 50/50. Since a smaller margin on your side, as well as tie, result in failure.
Additionally, if we understood right - if both fail, only the caster suffers.
Friend writes:
Furthermore, there's a difference between giving the resisting character a fighting chance and reducing a more potent attacker to a position of weakness.
A few points:
1. For the Rule of 16 to impact your offensive capabilities, your effective skill must be higher than 16. That means that you can only fail on a 17 or critically fail on an 18. Either result obviates the need for the defender to make a resistance roll.
2. If the attacker critically succeeds (with a result of 3-6), the defender gets no resistance roll.
3. The only time the attacker is reduced to a position of weakness is when the defender's resisting score is 16 or better, whereupon the chance of a tie gives him a slight (> 2%) edge.
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Old 07-04-2010, 12:11 AM   #33
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Default Re: [RULES] Rule of 16!

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- Wizards with their spells at level 30 are very rare.
Yes they are. So are warriors with Broadsword at level 30. And they're almost always one-skill wonders.

I see the wizard with one spell at 30 as no different as the warrior with broadsword at 30. If a 3rd party wizard casts Disintegrate on the Broadsword and destroys it, and the mighty warrior is then forced to use his Knife as skill 15, I don't really see that as any different than the over-specialized wizard going up against a resistance of 16. Specialization has it both its pros and cons.

Having a skill of 30 lowers the casting cost of the spell and it allows him to cast it at a respectable range of 14 yards (more with a Staff and the right perks) and still have it work at 16. Yes, his odds of success are slightly under 50%.

Too bad, IMO. If you're going to have Resistable spells as Your Thing, make sure you have different ones that go up against different attributes.

There are any number of ways of adjusting the Rule of 16 to your liking. For example you could allow him to have a 2 point advantage at any Resist level of 16 or higher. Myself, I restrict the advantage to 3 points at levels below 16, so that the victim always has some chance for hope. YMMV.
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Old 07-04-2010, 03:03 AM   #34
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Default Re: [RULES] Rule of 16!

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Originally Posted by Edges View Post
Like in AD&D, nobody needs the table except the DM/GM.
Why would only the game master need the table? Shouldn't the players be able to read the rules as well?
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Old 07-04-2010, 03:21 AM   #35
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Default Re: [RULES] Rule of 16!

I really don't think the rule of 16 is that integral. Use it or not, I don't think it'd be particularly unbalancing (though it WOULD change the balance). I think the high attribute contest rules that you guys came to a compromise on will also work reasonably well.

That said, if he's really that miserable a player, I'd dump him. No gaming is better than bad gaming.
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Old 07-04-2010, 04:42 AM   #36
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Default Re: [RULES] Rule of 16!

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Originally Posted by Anaxim View Post
I hear your logic, my friend does not. He claims that when tied at 16+ skill, given there is 16+ on the defender, the odds to get anything done are poor.

16 is the final skill level. Your SL 30 guy slaps away penalties with his excess the schnook with a 16 has to face those penalties in most cases without being able to slap them away.

Thus 30 with a -6 goes from a final 16 -6 to 30 -6 then to 16-.

Or you could look at Power Ups 2: Perks (p.20) and see that Rule of 17 perk with the note there that says GMs can allow mulitple levels of the Perk to be purchased for rule of 18, 19, 20 etc.
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Old 07-04-2010, 10:08 AM   #37
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Default Re: [RULES] Rule of 16!

Of course, while you're considering how rare spell levels of 30 are, also consider how rare attribute levels anywhere near 30 are. That's one reason for the Rule of 16, skill levels tend to rapidly out-pace attribute levels.
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Old 07-04-2010, 11:49 AM   #38
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Default Re: [RULES] Rule of 16!

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Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon View Post
Of course, while you're considering how rare spell levels of 30 are, also consider how rare attribute levels anywhere near 30 are. That's one reason for the Rule of 16, skill levels tend to rapidly out-pace attribute levels.
The idea that spell effects (especially MOST spell effects) must overcome one of GURPS contrived attributes or simply fail seems pretty weak to begin with. For all of the GURPS talk of researching spells like a science project, it is interesting that it treats humans so much different from objects.

I would favor in many genres a hard-and-fast effect (and often deadly) for spells... Glorify spellcasting. Don't assume you are an equal to a normal human. A mage in such a genre is changing the laws of physics AT A PERSON.. A spell cast should have a specific effect unless magically countered. For example, with flesh to stone, the effect might turn 10 pounds of flesh into stone and dealing 5points of damage to target per point of fatigue spent. It doesn't matter how healthy you are - if a mage hits a non-mage with a spell that target is going to be messed up.

On the other hand, there should be better rules in such a genre for wizard duels.. If a mage casts flesh to stone on another mage, that second mage shouuld be pouring magical energy back at him... as they vigh for contorl of physics in the area..

Now people with magical resistance... that's another thing you'd want to revisit.. If the laws of physics are less alterable around you because of this specific quality.. I'm thinking not only does the wizard have a penalty to cast the spell on you, but your magic resistance would subtract from the EFFECT... So in my flesh to stone example, a 10 fatigue 50 damage flesh to stone spell thrown at someone with MR 9 would take 5 points of damage.
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Old 07-04-2010, 01:20 PM   #39
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Default Re: [RULES] Rule of 16!

The rule of 16 (and other similar rules that benefit a defender) is entirely of benefit to players. GURPS in general, slightly favors PC survival when possible. A GM can give NPCs any resistance scores he chooses and even rule that they automatically fail resistance rolls regardless. If your friend really has a problem with this as a player, then point out that it's really just to his benefit. If he has a problem as a GM, then he's free to ignore it, but really I think he's missing the point.
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Old 07-04-2010, 01:45 PM   #40
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Default Re: [RULES] Rule of 16!

I've always imagined it that 16 is a perfectly executed attack, and that 16 is a perfectly executed defense. This gives a little less than a 50% chance of success. Defenses can be more elaborate to improve this, and attacks can then be made more complicated to offset improved defenses, but at the core, the essence of the contest doesn't go past the 16/16. (In effect, it's a normal success roll requiring a certain margin of success, with penalties if the defense is higher than 16 that can be offset with higher skills, just like normal

This makes opposed rolls similar to real rolls, where improving past 16 allows you to offset penalties but doesn't improve your chance of success.

It comes down to whether or not you believe that defense is something that should be absolute, or simply make it harder for the caster. Given the temporal resolution of GURPS, I'm entirely fine with archmages winning against competant foes by successive blows and catching their foes slipping up rather than just always plowing through them in one second.

I play a telepath in a supers game, and the rule of 16 makes the narrative of telepathic combat much more interesting–larger deltas between effective will and effective skill still give an edge, but only because the stronger telepath has a 50% chance of success and the weaker one has substantially less. Sure, you loose some differentiation if they're both offensively minded, but at that point it comes down to luck of the draw.
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