Allowed Defenses while Grappling?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by LordHelmet

Did I miss something?
What is your opinion concerning this issue?

I think partly what we're seeing here is that the real world definition of "grapple" and the GURPS term of art "Grappled" mean slightly different things, which are very important in resolving this apparent discrepancy.

In the real world, if Fighter A "grapples" Fighter B in a match, he's making a grab for him, an attempt to secure control. Fighter B likely resists by making a grab for A. Some struggle ensues. Seven seconds of struggle later, B moves in, and secures A with a double-handed grip. He's ready for a takedown now, etc.

In our regular descriptive terms, they've been "grappling" each other for seven seconds. In GURPS terms, only when B achieves some level of positive control over A is he considered Grappled (capital G, game term). At that point, the odds of A overcoming B's hold on him really IS a lot lower, and in real life, some sort of "escape" move or a hold-breaker is likely required before A can "Grapple" B back.

I think what most of us think of as grappling can (perhaps unfairly) be pictured in GURPS as two guys both in range C doing not much successfully. To an observer, it might even be an exciting match. To a GURPS Player, it's boring as heck.

To that extent, it would have been interesting to distinguish a "grab" or even "holding contact" vs the GURPS term of art "Grapple," which has enough game mechanical impact to drive comparatively huge bonuses much of the time. Grapple (GURPS Term) a Leg, and you have, what, a +3 bonus to takedowns and Leg Locks or something? That can be the equivalent of 12 points of skill! A big deal.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

In the real world, if Fighter A "grapples" Fighter B in a match, he's making a grab for him, an attempt to secure control. Fighter B likely resists by making a grab for A. Some struggle ensues. Seven seconds of struggle later, B moves in, and secures A with a double-handed grip. He's ready for a takedown now, etc.

I think what most of us think of as grappling can (perhaps unfairly) be pictured in GURPS as two guys both in range C doing not much successfully. To an observer, it might even be an exciting match. To a GURPS Player, it's boring as heck.

I wrestled in high school. A lot of the matches involved two sweaty guys in tights hugging one another and grunting a lot, until all of a sudden one guy was pinned. I don't think the real world is really that much more exciting than GURPS. :-)

[Icelander]

As a corollary to this issue, in my games, I allow (as a houserule) Wrestling Parries to be used against an opponent one has grappled without releasing the hold. This represents shifting the opponent's weight and center of balance around to cause him to miss his attack*.

In essence, this is an extension of the rule that allows counters vs. grappling only. It also serves the purpose of giving Wrestling a much needed boost relative to Judo when it comes to defending in certain situations, since Wrestling requires both hands to Parry while Judo allows one unpenalised Parry with each free hand.

I like my unarmed skills to be distinct and for each one to have its own niche where it excels.

*Which in my experience can be attempted without giving up the hold or sacrificing one's own action any more than a normal barehanded Parry.

[trooper6]

Originally Posted by Icelander

As a corollary to this issue, in my games, I allow (as a houserule) Wrestling Parries to be used against an opponent one has grappled without releasing the hold. This represents shifting the opponent's weight and center of balance around to cause him to miss his attack*.

I don't think that's a house rule. I think that is RAW. Post #16 and #17 of this thread seem to say so.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by trooper6

I don't think that's a house rule. I think that is RAW. Post #16 and #17 of this thread seem to say so.

It's RAW when parrying grappling attacks. What my house rule does is allow it to apply to parrying other types of attacks as well, as long as the character has the enemy grappled.

Actually, depending on how you read p. 119 of MA, it might be official for all attacks or it might be official only when you grapple someone from behind. Either way, you can in do it with Wrestling without restriction in my campaign.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by LordHelmet

Even if two professionals face each other (16CP/ Skill 14) the chance is only 67% to grapple successfully back - far from what happens in 90% of the time in reality as Kromm said.

Per second. An important detail of GURPS combat resolution that seems to be constantly overlooked. Even a 25% chance of managing to pull something off per second is fairly good, but it's constantly considered as horrible odds in-game.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by laserdog

Found my answer via this Kromm post (MA p121-122):

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...48&postcount=3

It seems strange to me that a man grappling someone with both arms has no penalties to dodge... I may have to house rule that.

Dodge in that case subsumes the ability of the grappler to physically affect the movements of the grappled attacker. He swings and you shove him around so he misses.