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Old 09-18-2008, 03:18 AM   #11
Mehmet
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Default Re: Allowed Defenses while Grappling?

I am not sure what the book says (if you say it says they don't affect your defenses then they don't, no problems there) but I always assumed such things like (3e) lower fatigue not lowering your ST or (4e) getting damaged reduces your statistics at set intervals are there for simplicity.

If you will, you can devise a very complicated system by which you can on the fly reduce move, defenses, attributes and such depending on the position, status, damage, fatigue, etc. but I wouldn't play in such a game, honestly.

Although, with grappling, intend is to keep the foe controlled so that you can hit/throw/subdue more easily.

If it did not reduce defenses no one would grapple their opponents in my opinion (or at least in my games).

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Old 09-18-2008, 03:37 AM   #12
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Default Re: Allowed Defenses while Grappling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matuku
I was also under this impression; I thought temporary stat drops didn't affect your defences?
They don't, it's just the optional extra detailed rule in MA gives penalties to defence that are equivalent to -1 DX. This is just the same as most other things that penalise both skill and defence, they give equivalent penalties.
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Old 09-18-2008, 07:48 AM   #13
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Default Re: Allowed Defenses while Grappling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinadon
They don't, it's just the optional extra detailed rule in MA gives penalties to defence that are equivalent to -1 DX.
That rule on Martial Arts page 121 isn't optional. It's a clarification and amplification of an existing rule, not optional extra detail.
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:28 AM   #14
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Default Re: Allowed Defenses while Grappling?

the question i always wondered was....if you use both hands to grapple someones torso... you can parry and maintain the grapple with both hands?
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Old 09-18-2008, 09:39 AM   #15
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Default Re: Allowed Defenses while Grappling?

If you are not parrying with a striker or your leg or your third arm, no, you can't.

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Old 09-18-2008, 11:04 AM   #16
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Default Re: Allowed Defenses while Grappling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynGrey

the question i always wondered was....if you use both hands to grapple someones torso... you can parry and maintain the grapple with both hands?
The rules on pp. 121-122 of Martial Arts are pretty clear on how this works:
The grappler has no penalties. However, he can't parry with a limb without releasing its hold on his victim. To retreat or use Acrobatic Dodge, he must let go with all of his limbs.
There are a few no-hands parries possible while grappling, however. From the same page:
Not all parries involve limbs, either. If you parry a grappling technique (e.g., Judo Throw or Piledriver) using Boxing, Brawling, Judo, Karate, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling, you can opt to "counter" -- twist or sprawl so that your adversary's technique fails -- rather than slap away your enemy's hands. This doesn't require a free hand. It resembles a dodge, but it's a parry in game terms.
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:09 PM   #17
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Default Re: Allowed Defenses while Grappling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mehmet View Post
If you are not parrying with a striker or your leg or your third arm, no, you can't.
Yes you can, as pointed out in pg. 119, Martial Arts, on the defenses a grappler can attempt:

Quote:
[The grappler] can try any close-combat parry with a free hand; a Jam, if you [the one being grappled] kicked; a grappling skill parry with the arms he's using to hold you; or a dodge. The last two options represent shoving you aside.
The bit about not being able to parry without letting go is for when you have to defend against an opponent other than the one you are grappling.
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:08 AM   #18
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Default Re: Allowed Defenses while Grappling?

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Well, yes. In close combat, when neither A nor B is grappled or when A and B are mutually grappled, nobody has a defensive penalty relative to the other. But when A is grappled by B, A does have a relative penalty -- as well he should, since B burned an action to grapple A and overcame A's defense, while A obviously did not return the favor -- and B is in control and better able to defend by definition. Were B also penalized on defense, I think the rules would be broken. Being "in control" is a significant advantage, and shouldn't hose you as much as it helps you.
Hence how important the clinch is in fights (even in sports like boxing where it's going to get you separated).

Quote:
Mutual grappling is much more of a penalty to two unskilled fighters than to highly skilled ones.
Don't forget about Grab and Smash! (or the numerous other ways someone good at grappling is going to hurt you once they get their hands on you)
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Old 10-15-2009, 02:27 PM   #19
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Default Re: Allowed Defenses while Grappling?

For what it's worth, I always treated it as follows:

- For the one being grappled, he can Dodge, but the grappler's weight, including equipment, counts as encumbrance (I figure having, say, 250 lb. attached to me via grapple slows me as much as carrying it on my back...or close enough)

- For the one grappling, if they're strong enough to lift the one grappled, they can use him/her to Block (although of course this tends to make the grappler's Enc. skyrocket as well). Makes grappling really popular for really strong types. :)

This might not match the rules, but it's interesting.
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Old 01-13-2010, 11:43 AM   #20
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Default Re: Allowed Defenses while Grappling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Yep. Grappling back is always an attack action. Until your foe does it, you're assumed to have him securely gripped whilst remaining unimpeded. This is a bit of a break from real life not because the rules are bad (they're fine) but because most gamers react to "He grapples you" with "I try to break free" and not with "I grapple him right back." But the latter is what happens 90% of the time in reality, and why people have trouble visualizing what grappling means in the game.
But that is exactly where I see the reality check fail. In GURPS it is extremly hard to grapple back. Think of two equally skilled fighters. When assuming that you have been grappled in the first place e.g. to the torso your DX is at -4. This is a hard penalty to grapple back. If you dont't want to take an AOA you need to take a Telegraphic Attack which in turn will boost the defense of your foe.

I have listed the chance to grapple back, for several skill levels, after you have been grappled yourself. Always assuming fighters with equal skill.
Your skill drops because of being grappled (-4), which is equalled out by taking Telegraphic Attack (+4) which gives in turn a bonus (+2) to your foe defending to prefent you from grappling back.

As you can see the chance for a nearly untrained fighter (1CP/ Skill 9) to grapple back an equal foe is a poor 14% chance.

Even if two professionals face each other (16CP/ Skill 14) the chance is only 67% to grapple successfully back - far from what happens in 90% of the time in reality as Kromm said.

Code:
							Skill					Defense	when		
				Skill			using					attacked with		
	CP	Skill		when			Telegraphic		foes		Telegraphic		Chance to grapple
DX	Spend	level	%	grappled	%	Attack		%	Defense	%	Attack		%	back %

10	1	9	37,5	5		4,6	9		37,5	7	16,2	9		37,5	14,06
10	2	10	50	6		9,3	10		50	8	25,9	10		50	25
10	4	11	62,5	7		16,2	11		62,5	8	25,9	10		50	31,25
10	8	12	74,1	8		25,9	12		74,1	9	37,5	11		62,5	46,31
10	12	13	83,8	9		37,5	13		83,8	9	37,5	11		62,5	52,38
10	16	14	90,7	10		50	14		90,7	10	50	12		74,1	67,21
10	20	15	95,4	11		62,5	15		95,4	10	50	12		74,1	70,69
10	24	16	98,1	12		74,1	16		98,1	11	62,5	13		83,8	82,21
Did I miss something?
What is your opinion concerning this issue?
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