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Old 03-30-2022, 01:40 PM   #81
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by RGTraynor View Post
My concept of knight is "someone who is a knight." GURPS not having character classes, the distinction is entirely social. Sure, people get knighted for brave deeds, but they also get knighted for service, for donating large sums to the crown (see Multi-Millionaire Guy above), for many reasons good or ill ...
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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
...
The vision of the knight as professional fighting man isn't wrong, but it doesn't go so well with how knights actually functioned for the majority of the historical period when knights were obliged to provide military might. The two sorts of knights coexisted, but the scutage-paying knight with minimal fighting skills steadily grew into the majority case from very early on.
I wonder which variety you guys think the OP meant when he said:

"The first fighter is a wealthy knight-type with muscles, health, and armor, armed with a nice spear."
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Old 03-30-2022, 04:10 PM   #82
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
I wonder which variety you guys think the OP meant when he said:

"The first fighter is a wealthy knight-type with muscles, health, and armor, armed with a nice spear."
Given that his Wealth is only Comfortable and his relatively low total point value, he looks like an average poor knight who is trying to make ends meet by skipping scutage.
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Old 03-30-2022, 09:11 PM   #83
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Please reread what I wrote, specifically this part:

That isn't just my opinion or something. Many European knights from the late 12th century on, long before the actors and musicians you mentioned, were precisely "some rich guy." They were quite literally people knighted for coming from the "right" families, most of which had the financial means to pay scutage: a fee paid in lieu of military service, ostensibly so the knight's feudal superior could hire mercenaries to fight in their stead. Especially in England at this time, that was "most knights" in quite a few places, not just one or two weaselly types trying to get out of fighting.
Funnily enough, a lot of knights and lords preferred to turn up with their required entourage when required to meet their obligation, because they didn't have or didn't want to spend the hard coin that paying scutage required. Kings tended to prefer that they pay up so that the king could then hire professionals.
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The vision of the knight as professional fighting man isn't wrong, but it doesn't go so well with how knights actually functioned for the majority of the historical period when knights were obliged to provide military might. The two sorts of knights coexisted, but the scutage-paying knight with minimal fighting skills steadily grew into the majority case from very early on. The erasure of that truth is largely due to tales of romantic chivalry, which have all knights on horses, jousting all the time, riding out to fight bad guys, and so on . . . Yes, that's the vision RPGs like, but there's absolutely nothing in error with the statement that anyone who has Status 2 and Wealthy is a knight by definition (because social mobility was too low to have those things by very many other means), as long as they also have and obey the correct Duty.
In many places they'd be a minor lordling who might well not be knighted, especially later on when being an actual knight was very expensive (hence all the country squires in England). Such a lord would still have various feudal obligations though, and they'd include troops or scutage.
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Old 03-31-2022, 12:34 AM   #84
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
I wonder which variety you guys think the OP meant when he said:

"The first fighter is a wealthy knight-type with muscles, health, and armor, armed with a nice spear."

Pretty obviously the second, don't you think? Yeah, beefy dude, obviously has been through some training, but the only way that fellow's going to get knighted for being a "great warrior" is being real lucky at the right place, at the right time, with the right people watching.
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Old 03-31-2022, 02:32 AM   #85
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by lugaid View Post
Given that his Wealth is only Comfortable and his relatively low total point value, he looks like an average poor knight who is trying to make ends meet by skipping scutage.
Given thst he lacks Status, it seems like "man-at-arms" or perhaps "ruffler" was meant.
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Old 03-31-2022, 04:37 AM   #86
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Given thst he lacks Status, it seems like "man-at-arms" or perhaps "ruffler" was meant.
Good point, and there's no free Status for merely Comfortable Wealth.
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Old 03-31-2022, 04:40 AM   #87
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
Like most things, I would instinctively use the SSR scale. Something like:
Code:
skill  hours/week
att+5  1
att+6  1.5
att+7  2
att+8  3
att+9  5
att+10 7
att+11 10
att+12 15
At att+17, you're basically spending every waking moment practicing.
I wanted to come back to this and comment that I really, really like this suggestion and think I'm going to adopt it into my "Gritty House Rules" set.
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Old 03-31-2022, 07:01 AM   #88
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

You guys did see this line in the OP, right? "And with this I've considered two fighters of 58 points each(excluding what else they spent points on)." So you who are oh-noing over the lack of Status and whatnot are sort of missing the point. Though that does make it odd to include Wealth in that writeup.
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Old 03-31-2022, 07:05 AM   #89
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by Žorkell View Post
You guys did see this line in the OP, right? "And with this I've considered two fighters of 58 points each(excluding what else they spent points on)." So you who are oh-noing over the lack of Status and whatnot are sort of missing the point. Though that does make it odd to include Wealth in that writeup.
Sure, he could be a knight, but I suspect the OP was using "knight" as a shorthand for "armored fighter".
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Old 03-31-2022, 08:15 AM   #90
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Default Re: Spear vs Knights... am I missing something?

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Originally Posted by Žorkell View Post

You guys did see this line in the OP, right? "And with this I've considered two fighters of 58 points each(excluding what else they spent points on)." So you who are oh-noing over the lack of Status and whatnot are sort of missing the point. Though that does make it odd to include Wealth in that writeup.
I certainly saw those words. I took them to mean that when I read the word "knight," there would be lots of points elsewhere on knightly stuff like social traits.

Then again, I'm famously not a literalist, but an interpretive reader between the lines . . . I give a lot of credence to offhand remarks like that one, and fill in the blanks with what makes sense to me even when it isn't spelled out. I suppose that's why my writing habit of using "e.g." and "etc." a lot drives some GURPS fans crazy: They think my lists are exhaustive when they're very definitely intended as examples. Be warned! I always take it as given that my readers can interpret me and, as a reader, that other writers are similarly extending me the benefit of the doubt.

Anyway, I suspect Wealth was included because some gamers deem gear to be part of the character, and gear is bought with Wealth. It's an attempt to assign a point value to gear. Of course, that's rather iffy given that effective gear is often ugly but cheap, while elaborate gear is often ornate but useless . . . and given that in actual play, PCs rapidly accumulate all kinds of stuff that has nothing to do with their Wealth level. Probably for the purpose of this kind of thread, it would be easier to assign an arbitrary point cost to each $X of useful combat gear. Certainly, if gladiatorial pit matches are your thing, you ought prohibit Wealth and ornate gear, and just assign a point-value-equivalent to all weapons and armor.
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