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Old 10-08-2012, 06:43 PM   #11
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: [LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
And when considering whether something is exposed enough to strike at, we need to remember that footwork and mobility are the assumed standard practice in GURPS combat. Legs will move around, with either one of them leading, so the inner thighs will be exposed at some points if the armoured character is fighting on foot.
In my opinion as a student of Fiore's art who has seen a few dozen good bouts in harness within the last month, its not regularly exposed as a viable tactical choice like the face, armpits, and groin are. The actual exposed area, even to a thrust from the most favourable angle, is small, and thrusting below the waist is rarely a good idea. We already have the randomness of damage and the critical hit rules to allow for chancing on a good target in an otherwise well-armoured Hit Location ...

Its unfortunate that we have very little advice on how to attack 16th and 17th century harness with edged weapons on foot. I would have to see it in motion, but I would be inclined to treat long tassets like your example as protecting Thigh Front and Knee Front even if that errs on the side of weight and protection.
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Old 10-08-2012, 07:16 PM   #12
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Default Re: [LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage

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In my opinion as a student of Fiore's art who has seen a few dozen good bouts in harness within the last month, its not regularly exposed as a viable tactical choice like the face, armpits, and groin are. The actual exposed area, even to a thrust from the most favourable angle, is small, and thrusting below the waist is rarely a good idea. We already have the randomness of damage and the critical hit rules to allow for chancing on a good target in an otherwise well-armoured Hit Location ...

Its unfortunate that we have very little advice on how to attack 16th and 17th century harness with edged weapons on foot. I would have to see it in motion, but I would be inclined to treat long tassets like your example as protecting Thigh Front and Knee Front even if that errs on the side of weight and protection.
Treating it as Thigh Front and Knee Front is really favourable for that design and effectively what I have been doing now.

OTOH, I don't really see any harm in allowing a thrusting attack at -8 for the inner thigh. It's harder or as hard as hitting the face past cheekguards and a nasal guard, so it's not unbalancing in any way. If a character can't Parry, Block or Dodge an attack made at -8 skill*, he's either down, stunned, exposing himself something fierce or he's fighting someone good enough to shave him close without even a skin rash during a fight anyway.

*And thus 4 points less Deceptive than the equivalent attack at a +0 target, whether that's done by lower Deceptive Attack or Telegraphic Attack.
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Old 10-11-2012, 05:14 AM   #13
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Default Re: [LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage

Is the following a reasonble model for a rich mercenary's suit of armour?

Helmet: [Heavy Plate Bassinet (covers Skull and back of head; medium plate hinged visor. Don't actually know how to model a visor that isn't the same as the rest of the helmet, due to the peculiarity of Helmet Weight and Cost being used as the base of modifications to it, rather than using the normal Hit Location and Armour Table.]
Gorget: Heavy plate front (covers Neck(F), x0.025). Weight 0.8 lbs.; Cost $40; DR 9.
Light plate rear (covers Neck(R), x0.025). Weight 0.2 lbs.; Cost $25; DR 3.
Spaulders: Heavy+ segmented plate* (covers Shoulders, x0.1; +1 DR, +6 Weight and +$300 Cost). Weight 3 lbs.; Cost $150; DR 6.
Cuirass: Heavy plate breastplate (covers Chest(F), x0.375). Weight 12 lbs.; Cost $1,500; DR 9.
Medium plate backplate (covers Chest(R), x0.375). Weight 7.5 lbs.; Cost $937.5; DR 6.
Fauld: Heavy+ segmented plate* (covers Abdomen(F), except Groin, x0.1; +1 DR, +6 Weight and +$300 Cost). Weight 3 lbs.; Cost $150; DR 6.
Medium segmented plate (covers Abdomen(R), except Groin, x0.1; +1 DR, +6 Weight and +$300 Cost). Weight 2.4 lbs.; Cost $90; DR 4.
Tassets: Light segmented plate (covers Thighs(F), x0.225). Weight 2.7 lbs.; Cost $67; DR 3.
Vambraces: Light segmented plate (covers Forearms, x0.25). Weight 4 lbs.; Cost $75; DR 3.

Total Weight: 35.6 lbs.; Total Cost: $3034.5.
(excl. bassinet)

*I use Dan's modified weight for segmented plate and scale and his modified cost for mail and plates. Without these, the Armour Table doesn't make much sense and segmented plate goes from being an intergral part of TL4 suits to being poor TL2 armour that inexplicably continued in use.
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Old 10-11-2012, 05:45 AM   #14
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Default Re: [LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage

The area of the inner thigh, as well as other areas not covered by plate, was covered by mail. Plate, even at its peak, could not cover everything - some areas were just mpossible, such as armpits and that small area where the thighs meet at the groin.
So, consider that the areas in question are armored, just not with plate. And mail was pretty good against most weapons - plate was just better.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:10 AM   #15
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Default Re: [LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage

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The area of the inner thigh, as well as other areas not covered by plate, was covered by mail. Plate, even at its peak, could not cover everything - some areas were just mpossible, such as armpits and that small area where the thighs meet at the groin.
So, consider that the areas in question are armored, just not with plate. And mail was pretty good against most weapons - plate was just better.
Not true for many gunpowder era armours, like the three-quarter plate.

In any case, irrelevant, as the rules-question needs answering whether or not I choose to use mail to armour any areas left uncovered by plate.
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Old 10-11-2012, 08:21 AM   #16
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Default Re: [LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Helmet: [Heavy Plate Bassinet (covers Skull and back of head; medium plate hinged visor. Don't actually know how to model a visor that isn't the same as the rest of the helmet, due to the peculiarity of Helmet Weight and Cost being used as the base of modifications to it, rather than using the normal Hit Location and Armour Table.]
Why not design the visor as part of a medium plate bassinet, then just use it as is?
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Old 10-11-2012, 08:52 AM   #17
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Default Re: [LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage

I would really expect Knee and Elbow coverage, since the tassets are segmented and its not much work to extend them to below the knee. They just make too good targets otherwise, and a bad injury to either can end a career. Upper Arm is debatable ... its not a very good target for edged weapons, but a bullet or arrow there is no fun, so many armours covered it.

I would just work out the cost and weight of the helmet and visor by percentages: the helmet bowl is 25% (Skull, Face Rear) and the visor 5% (Face Front).
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:54 AM   #18
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Default Re: [LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage

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Why not design the visor as part of a medium plate bassinet, then just use it as is?
Because it's an extra step that yields an extraneous statline of nasty-bad ugliness and it feels like a cludge? I know that's the only way to get an official weight and cost now, but I was hoping Loadouts had a more elegant way to write it up.

Then again, I felt that elegance and simplificity was better served by presenting Face protection using the same coverage percentages as all other armour pieces and not a new sub-system.
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:24 PM   #19
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Default Re: [LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage

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I would really expect Knee and Elbow coverage, since the tassets are segmented and its not much work to extend them to below the knee. They just make too good targets otherwise, and a bad injury to either can end a career. Upper Arm is debatable ... its not a very good target for edged weapons, but a bullet or arrow there is no fun, so many armours covered it.
Some tassets would absolutely reach down far enough to cover the entire front of the Knee, yes. But those would be less comfortable on foot and especially, while climbing, crawling, squeezing through tight openings, swimming through an underground tunnel, doing backflips, swandives and all the other bass-ass ninja athletics and acrobatics that PC regularly do.

More comfortable, if realistically slightly more expensive, are poleyns (and couters for the elbows). But while an individual warrior might well get himself some of those, they simply aren't standard for all three-quarter plate suits. A lot of the time, comfort seems to have been valued more highly than full body protection.

Since musket and pistol shots would penetrate a lot of the thinner pieces of armour anyway, the wearer has already made his peace, in a philosophical way, with the fact that an unlucky hit might kill or cripple him. If he expects to do a lot of melee combat, he might opt for more complete limb protection anyway, reasoning that while he can't stop bullets everywhere, he can still do something about swords. But it appears that not everyone did that.

There's also the fact that while knees, elbows and upper arms are unprotected, they aren't easy targets from a distance and in a melee on horseback, the arms are easy to defend with your own weapon while the knees are fairly difficult to reach. The knees are still vulnerable to footmen, of course, but then, even if the tassets were a few inches longer, they would still offer scope for thrusting upwards and under them. Just have to avoid giving someone an opportunity to leisurely murder you while your horse stands still.

My experience is that PCs nearly always opt for joint protection, of the maximum level they can get without compromising their ninja climby-crawly skills. NPCs, some of whom may wear their armour month after month without ever getting into a desperate melee, may find that comfortable armour is more important than full-coverage armour. Especially if they're mostly wearing it to make missiles less of a threat.

We see that even the best equipped troops on today's battlefield don't cover all of their bodies, even when they know that limb hits, especially hits on complex, fragile joints, may cause them permanent crippling injuries. Even spec-ops entry teams sometimes opt for plastic (to protect from minor dings) over truly ballistic protection over very significant areas (like the skull, but also elbows and knees). Even the most bad-ass warriors spend most of their time doing day-to-day stuff and when your armour is your day-to-day wear, sometimes you make sacrifices for comfort.

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
I would just work out the cost and weight of the helmet and visor by percentages: the helmet bowl is 25% (Skull, Face Rear) and the visor 5% (Face Front).
That's simple and elegant, yes, but that's not officially allowed in LT. In fact, it gets you a lighter visor than if you use the official rules there. Also, adding things to the more complete helmets is heavier than adding them to the basic ones. For the same thickness and material, say a Medium Plate helmet, adding a Brim (LT p. 112) is +$30 and +0.24 lbs. to a Skull Cap (LT p. 111) but +$36 and +0.3 lbs. to a Bascinet (LT p. 111).

Since it's the same Brim/Visor/whatever, this shouldn't happen. If anything, adding extras to a minimal helmet ought to be slightly heavier and more expensive, to account for the need to securely fasten them with fewer anchor points available. For simplicity and elegance, simply basing weight and cost on the amount of Face* that is covered would seem to be the way to go.

*Full coverage is 5% of Torso armour.
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: [LT] Knight field plate harness, three-quarter plate and leg coverage

As a note, knee armor makes for far more comfortable crawling than a lack of knee armor
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