Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-05-2013, 05:35 AM   #41
Peter Knutsen
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Europe
Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

One thing I've often wondered about: How attractive is it, in GURPS, to raise one's ST so much that one gets to roll two dice for damage, rather than just one? Anything based on 2d is inherently less "random" than 1d, so that alone would seem to mean that combat damage will become much more consistent. Much more consistently able to lay down the pain, and whack through medium armour.

If I'm onto something here, then it'd be an attractive game design change to shift the ST-derived damage table so that the transition from 1d to 2d happens at weaker than average Human ST. Maybe even at ST 8->9.

Or maybe it's no big deal in actual play.
Peter Knutsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 05:43 AM   #42
Ji ji
 
Ji ji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

Some month ago, I rewrote the whole armor table. I employed experimental data on armor penetration of blades, arrows, bullets and spears.
Given that ST-based damage table has issues, I employed only ST 7-17 scores. So, the uncalibration of the damage table itself has little or none effect on the outcomes.

In the end, my DR are between 1.5 and 2 times LT DR.
0.8mm plate grants DR 6 and weight 8 lbs; 3.2mm DR 18 and 32 lbs
2.8mm leather DR 2* and 8 lbs; 7mm DR 4 and 20 lbs
4mm hardened leather DR 3 and 15 lbs; 7mm DR 5 and 25 lbs
segmented plate: 16 lbs DR 6, 28 lbs DR 9, 40 lbs DR 12

IMHO, these DR give satisfactory results both with muscle-powered weapons (in ST 7-17 span) and LT firearms (arquebuses, calivers and muskets).
I think that actual LT DR make firearms far too powerful; i.e. in GURPS a primitive arquebus can penetrate 3mm steel half of times, while in real world it can't penetrate this steel sheet at all (not even a point-blank perpendicular shot).
In the end, as a simple rule I would recommend to multiply LT DR by 1.5 for leather and cloth and by 2 for metal, letting everything else unchanged.

Last edited by Ji ji; 11-05-2013 at 05:48 AM.
Ji ji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 08:18 AM   #43
Edges
 
Edges's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: GMT-5
Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ji ji View Post
Some month ago, I rewrote the whole armor table. I employed experimental data on armor penetration of blades, arrows, bullets and spears.
Given that ST-based damage table has issues, I employed only ST 7-17 scores. So, the uncalibration of the damage table itself has little or none effect on the outcomes.

In the end, my DR are between 1.5 and 2 times LT DR.
0.8mm plate grants DR 6 and weight 8 lbs; 3.2mm DR 18 and 32 lbs
2.8mm leather DR 2* and 8 lbs; 7mm DR 4 and 20 lbs
4mm hardened leather DR 3 and 15 lbs; 7mm DR 5 and 25 lbs
segmented plate: 16 lbs DR 6, 28 lbs DR 9, 40 lbs DR 12

IMHO, these DR give satisfactory results both with muscle-powered weapons (in ST 7-17 span) and LT firearms (arquebuses, calivers and muskets).
I think that actual LT DR make firearms far too powerful; i.e. in GURPS a primitive arquebus can penetrate 3mm steel half of times, while in real world it can't penetrate this steel sheet at all (not even a point-blank perpendicular shot).
In the end, as a simple rule I would recommend to multiply LT DR by 1.5 for leather and cloth and by 2 for metal, letting everything else unchanged.
If this works, you just might be my hero.
Edges is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 08:24 AM   #44
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen View Post
One thing I've often wondered about: How attractive is it, in GURPS, to raise one's ST so much that one gets to roll two dice for damage, rather than just one? Anything based on 2d is inherently less "random" than 1d, so that alone .
Very attractive given bonuses to damage that happen on a per die basis. Unarmed combat Skills, Weapon Master bonuses, some Advantages and even bonuses for Committed and all Out Attack and a few other maneuvers.
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 08:25 AM   #45
Edges
 
Edges's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: GMT-5
Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
ST01 = 1d-4 cutting, 1d-4 imp
ST02 = 1d-3 cutting, 1d-3 imp
ST03 = 1d-3 cutting, 1d-2 imp
ST04 = 1d-2 cutting, 1d-1 imp
ST05 = 1d-1 cutting, 1d imp
ST06 = 1d-1 cutting, 1d imp
ST07 = 1d cutting, 1d+1 imp
ST08 = 1d cutting, 1d+2 imp
ST09 = 1d+1 cutting, 2d-1 imp
ST10 = 1d cutting, 2d imp
ST11 = 1d+1 cutting, 2d imp
ST12 = 1d+2 cutting, 2d+1 imp
ST13 = 1d+3 cutting, 2d+2 imp
ST14 = 2d cutting, 3d-1 imp
ST15 = 2d cutting, 3d imp
ST16 = 2d+1 cutting, 3d imp
ST17 = 2d+1 cutting, 3d+1 imp
ST18 = 2d+2 cutting, 3d+2 imp
ST19 = 2d+2 cutting, 4d-1 imp
ST20 = 2d+3 cutting, 4d imp
I don't see ow this addresses the issue. A guy with ST 12 or 13 is still going through mail and plate with most strikes. Isn't that not supposed to happen IRL?
Edges is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 08:33 AM   #46
gilbertocarlos
 
gilbertocarlos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Caxias do Sul, Brazil
Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
I don't see ow this addresses the issue. A guy with ST 12 or 13 is still going through mail and plate with most strikes. Isn't that not supposed to happen IRL?
Mail and plate has DR5, to go through this, you need to do damage of 11+(edge protection), so, no, it doesn't go through most of the time, for that you need ST24.

The minimum ST to go through mail and plates is 14, with I think it's still low, but the chance of that happening is less than 10%.
__________________
I've revised the Low Tech weapons table:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=112532
gilbertocarlos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 08:45 AM   #47
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edges View Post
If this works, you just might be my hero.
It seems like it cannot possibly do so. It invalidates the (rigorous and trustworthy) firearm penetration stuff. It also appears to be based on rejection or misunderstanding of how firearm damage relates to actual penetration: actually rolling the damage dice is not representative of penetration testing. That's why we get Armor as Dice rules...

However, the reciprocal approach of halving muscle-powered damage, well, that's been suggested before.
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 08:45 AM   #48
Edges
 
Edges's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: GMT-5
Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
Mail and plate has DR5, to go through this, you need to do damage of 11+(edge protection), so, no, it doesn't go through most of the time, for that you need ST24.

The minimum ST to go through mail and plates is 14, with I think it's still low, but the chance of that happening is less than 10%.
Edit: Ah. Edge protection. Yes that could work. In yout table, a 9 ST can do 11 damage. But it would be unlikely enough.

Also, I don't recall. Does the edge protection rule extend to imp damage?

Last edited by Edges; 11-05-2013 at 09:18 AM.
Edges is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 09:12 AM   #49
Edges
 
Edges's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: GMT-5
Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
It seems like it cannot possibly do so. It invalidates the (rigorous and trustworthy) firearm penetration stuff. It also appears to be based on rejection or misunderstanding of how firearm damage relates to actual penetration: actually rolling the damage dice is not representative of penetration testing. That's why we get Armor as Dice rules...

However, the reciprocal approach of halving muscle-powered damage, well, that's been suggested before.
Armor as Dice has always appealed to me.

What about using Ji ji's suggestion and add a AD (2) to all HT firearms? Leave LT weapons and ST tables unchanged.
Edges is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2013, 09:12 AM   #50
vierasmarius
 
vierasmarius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oregon
Default Re: [LT] No More Nerf Armor

On the subject of rejiggering damage and HP, how about a multiplier of x10? For a lot of folks that's easier to do at a glance. Also, rather than rolling inconsistent numbers of dice you could just roll 3d and multiply it by the attack's (original) average damage. A pistol that dealt 2d would now inflict 3dx7. For melee damage, 3dx(ST/3) would be a good starting point. If you don't mind rolling different numbers of dice, just make that "roll dice equal to ST score".
vierasmarius is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
low-tech armor

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:21 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.