Ultratech Sleep/Paralysis Agents

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Langy

For a 'realistic' sleep agent, I'd probably do something like this:

If an individual fails their HT roll by ten or more, they suffer a Heart Attack. If they fail their HT roll by five or more, they fall into a Coma. If they fail their HT roll, they fall unconscious for minutes equal to margin of failure, followed by regular sleep. If they succeed by less than five, they are rendered Drowzy for 20-HT minutes and get a -2 penalty to all skill or attribute rolls, except for HT rolls. If they succeed by five or more, the gas has no effect.

That doesn't seem any more advanced than the TL7½ stuff Russians used in Nord-Ost.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

That doesn't seem any more advanced than the TL7½ stuff Russians used in Nord-Ost.

Possibly not - last time I looked up sleep agents was when I made the one in current use in Edgerunners (a TL9-10 setting), which is just:

If an individual fails their HT roll, they fall unconscious for minutes equal to margin of failure, followed by regular sleep. If they succeed by less than five, they are rendered tired for 20-HT minutes and get a -2 penalty to all skill or attribute rolls, except for HT rolls. If they succeed by five or more, the gas has no effect.

I'll have to look at current state-of-the-art agents to see what's better/etc.

Note that I didn't say 'realistic UT sleep agents' in my previous post - just 'realistic';)

[Nereidalbel]

The only way sleep/paralysis gas could realistically knock somebody out without the risk of lethality (bashing one's head onto a table aside) would be if said gas tended to be lighter than air. In an enclosed space, this would head towards the ceiling, so the gas can safely be turned off once people fall over and are no longer in the sleeping cloud. In open air, people who fall over are still going to be below the gas released from grenades, pipes placed strategically, etc.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

The only way sleep/paralysis gas could realistically knock somebody out without the risk of lethality (bashing one's head onto a table aside) would be if said gas tended to be lighter than air. In an enclosed space, this would head towards the ceiling, so the gas can safely be turned off once people fall over and are no longer in the sleeping cloud. In open air, people who fall over are still going to be below the gas released from grenades, pipes placed strategically, etc.

Alternatively, you could make the gas react with oxygen (or some other element in the air) but deliver it in a form that doesn't have that element present.

An aerosol mist that rapidly evaporates would probably work, too. Wouldn't be an actual 'gas', though.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Langy

Alternatively, you could make the gas react with oxygen (or some other element in the air) but deliver it in a form that doesn't have that element present.

An aerosol mist that rapidly evaporates would probably work, too. Wouldn't be an actual 'gas', though.

If you could convert the various chemicals (primarily melatonin) that trigger sleep into an aerosol, you'd have a short-ranged, but effective, means of knocking people out. If you skip the melatonin and only go for the GABA and glycine, you can paralyze somebody's limbs without shutting off the central nervous system. Pulling off such a thing is a bit beyond TL8, though.

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

The only way sleep/paralysis gas could realistically knock somebody out without the risk of lethality (bashing one's head onto a table aside) would be if said gas tended to be lighter than air. In an enclosed space, this would head towards the ceiling, so the gas can safely be turned off once people fall over and are no longer in the sleeping cloud. In open air, people who fall over are still going to be below the gas released from grenades, pipes placed strategically, etc.

If the sleep gas mixes with air, it will not differentiate from the air over any reasonable distance (the "scale height"; or altitude difference over which the gas density falls off appreciably) is on the order of kilometers. So in this case, it does not separate out and rise to the ceiling.

On the other hand, if it is not mixed with air, it will form an asphyxiating agent. If it is odorless, this can be quite effective at rendering people unconscious after a few breaths. You probably would not be able to do better than neon - about half the density of air, non-toxic, non-flamable, and odorless. I think there would be difficulties making it effective - if it does mix with air it is not very effective, and if you use too much and displace too much air, people will die of suffocation.

Luke

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

If the sleep gas mixes with air, it will not differentiate from the air over any reasonable distance (the "scale height"; or altitude difference over which the gas density falls off appreciably) is on the order of kilometers. So in this case, it does not separate out and rise to the ceiling.

On the other hand, if it is not mixed with air, it will form an asphyxiating agent. If it is odorless, this can be quite effective at rendering people unconscious after a few breaths. You probably would not be able to do better than neon - about half the density of air, non-toxic, non-flamable, and odorless. I think there would be difficulties making it effective - if it does mix with air it is not very effective, and if you use too much and displace too much air, people will die of suffocation.

Luke

Well, you can't breathe smoke, and that tends to rise towards the ceiling. Granted, part of that is that it's much warmer than the air you're crawling through to not die, but, measured quantities being released can leave the breathable air high enough for the unconscious guy to live. It's not fool-proof, though, as somebody who knows what's happening can drop to the floor and wait for ventilation systems to clear the gas.

[Fred Brackin]

Trying for a "detailed" UT incapacitating chemical (which is not necessarily the same as a realistic 0one) the core effect that I believe you would want would be to slow but strengthen/regulate the cardiac and respiratory functions.

This would definitely be a smart "drug" or more likely a cocktail of interacting chemical agents where one limits another from going too far.

The game effect could be handled as requiring a HT roll at a penalty for any exertion but giving an equivalent bonus to Survival rolls.

This would have lifesaving uses too of course.

Besides the combined cardiopulmonary depressant/regulator you could throw in a muscle relaxant and a general soporific and make those failed HT rolls for exertion result in sleep. Even successes might result in penalties to attributes.

<shrug> All very complicated but it might be in the general area of a detailed picture of what you'd at least _want_.

[Anthony]

I generally prefer to make drugs as fatigue damage attacks with symptoms; rolling for damage and variance in total FP gives enough variability in who it affects, and the overdose effects are covered by normal fatigue damage rules. That ignores allergic responses and the like, but it's not ridiculous.

For a self-limiting chemical, you want something that reaches equilibrium in blood; asphyxiating agents do that (there's a level of O2 that permits survival but not consciousness). However, it's hard to control dose (gas tends to not mix perfectly, resulting in some areas that don't do much and others that are lethal), it's slow, most options require extremely large quantities of gas, and you have a problem that you can't keep rerolling -- being self-limiting means that it might limit itself to too low a dose to actually take out some targets.

[starslayer]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

That doesn't seem any more advanced than the TL7½ stuff Russians used in Nord-Ost.

Thank you for remembering this.

I think that's an excellent example of how advanced sleep drugs are RIGHT NOW.

The Russians have a sleep drug that can be piped in, knocks everyone out almost instantly, and is leathal to a small number of those it knocks out. It is a late TL7 tech, and the only reason it is not more used is that the backlash from its use is strong, it is of limited utility (like for knocking out insane terrorists before they can execute hostages).

As such I would be comfortable saying that a TL 8+/9 sleep agent could be either of the following (8+ being 'a sleep agent developed in TL8 because there was actually a perceived need for it and the money/moativation to develop it; Like say if a TL8 society wanted to quell a lot of riots/hostage takers without the messy backblast from tear-gas or mass police deployment):

Fast, effective, not so plessant, somewhat harmful.
Contact agent, primarily a respatory agent, but someone wearing a gas mask but still having exposed skin still needs to roll to resist at +5. It is a thick opaque gas which also obsures vision.
1. HT-5 per second of exposure or become mentally stunned
2. After 5 failures or a critical failure drop into a coma.
3. Subsequent critical failures induce soffocation for ten seconds, after which an HT roll to recover is required



A bit slower, effective, plessant, unlikely to cause permanant harm.
Respatory agent only, considered to have low signature 2: it cannot be detected except by special sensors
1. HT roll per ten seconds of exposure or become lethargic; the only way to break the lethargy is to leave the affected area.
2. Ht roll per ten seconds of exposure once lethargic or become mentally stunned, any damage or disruption while mentally stunned will move the individual back to being lethargic.
3. HT roll per ten seconds of exposure once mentally stunned or go to sleep, any damge or disruption while asleep will move the individual back to being lethargic.
4. HT roll per minute of exposure once mentally stunned or go into a coma.
5. HT roll per minute of exposure once in a coma or suffer 1 FP damage from soffocation.