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Old 01-31-2014, 04:23 PM   #11
corwyn
 
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Default Re: [DF] Help making an effective Martial Artist

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMason View Post
Thanks for all the help! This is definitely a case where I (the GM) didn't know enough about the role and what are the best TbaM skills. I feel a lot better about the template now, and what it can an can't do.
Someone else will undoubtedly correct me if something prevents this, but given that:

1) templates aren't mandatory in DF (though you may have made them so)
2) Striking ST is explicitly allowed in DF 1
3) DF is cinematic

So, if your player wants to be competitive without weapons, how about something like this:

Striking ST to get to SS 19 (the minimum needed to get the double bonus for Karate), punches (-60%) or unarmed (say, -50%?). At the most, this would cost 16 points for punches/elbow strikes or 20 to include kicks/knee strikes, given base ST 11.

Add to this Dual Weapon for Karate and he has two punches for 2d+2; still not as good as a couple of swords, but decent.

Note: I've been using this for a high-powered pulp game but I just realized the limitation is intended for one particular striker; what would be a fair limitation for both fists or all four human limbs?
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Old 01-31-2014, 05:02 PM   #12
Kromm
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Default Re: [DF] Help making an effective Martial Artist

It's worth asking the player whether she prefers crowd control or damage output, though. Most character types in DF have to choose, after all. It's much harder to be good at damage with bare hands, and that's worth pointing out. Conversely, it's easy to be good in a mob scene: Trained by a Master halves all Rapid Strike and multiple-parry penalties; Judo throws, Kiai, and Push are really excellent for mucking up enemy formations; and all that Move and Acrobatics stuff is more valuable if you run around the edges nipping instead of planting yourself somewhere to hack and slash. And as a general rule, the kinds of mooks that occur in hordes are easily taken out, which means that low damage isn't an issue.

I have seen this in play, and my experience has been that the martial artist darts around occupying fodder while some heavy hitter with a swung weapon wades in after the boss.

It's also worth a mention that an unarmed martial artist isn't a loner, but clay for his teammates to mold. For instance, he's downright scary when buffed with Steelwraith. He won't be using much metal gear anyway, while he can punch right through metal armor. Against enemies who like swords and mail, he's basically a god: their weapons can't hurt him, their armor can't stop his fists, and they're forced to grapple with someone who is a master of Judo . . .
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Old 01-31-2014, 05:49 PM   #13
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Default Re: [DF] Help making an effective Martial Artist

When I did LARPing I carried around an extra sword with a brown cover that was classed as a wooden club for this very reason!
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Old 01-31-2014, 06:23 PM   #14
the_matrix_walker
 
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Default Re: [DF] Help making an effective Martial Artist

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Originally Posted by corwyn View Post
Striking ST to get to SS 19 (the minimum needed to get the double bonus for Karate), punches (-60%) or unarmed (say, -50%?). At the most, this would cost 16 points for punches/elbow strikes or 20 to include kicks/knee strikes, given base ST 11.
Unarmed Only Striking ST is at -60%, and is definitely the way to go for someone who doesn't use weapons.
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Old 01-31-2014, 07:27 PM   #15
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Default Re: [DF] Help making an effective Martial Artist

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Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker View Post
Unarmed Only Striking ST is at -60%, and is definitely the way to go for someone who doesn't use weapons.
Where specifically is this from?

Powers says one specific attack (a specific striker, a bite). GCA cites this limitation for punches only (but not kicks).
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Old 01-31-2014, 07:50 PM   #16
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Default Re: [DF] Help making an effective Martial Artist

Sorry, my bad, Punching only would be -60%. Unarmed only would be -40%

Quote:
Originally Posted by PK View Post
I'd call the limitations:

-80% for one specific weapon (only my custom, silver-plated broadsword -- I call her Vera).

-60% for one type of attack only (as per the rules: bite only, broadsword only, etc.)

-40% for a narrow class of attacks (unarmed only; swords only)

-20% for anything broader as long as the GM feels that it's still limiting the character (weapons only; ranged attacks only)

And then you can stack different kinds as much as you want (e.g., Striking ST 4 [20] + Striking ST 10 (Weapons Only, -20%) [40] + Striking ST 5 (Swords Only, -40%) [15] would give you a total ST +19 when using a sword).
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Old 01-31-2014, 09:20 PM   #17
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Default Re: [DF] Help making an effective Martial Artist

Here is a Wood Elf Martial Artist Character. He is geared to be a mobile flanker, moving around the edges of a fight striking and retreating. With his move 11 and reach 2 staff, he can play havic with mooks, focusing them into wild swings to reach him. He has the sweep and push technique/skill to knock around sturdier oponents. He is decent with his bow (not strickly template, but matches the concept of a old 3e style "Sylvan War Lore" practitioner.

Name: Quinlin
Profession: Martial Artist
Race: Wood Elf

Attributes [160]
ST 11 [20]
DX 16 [100]
IQ 10
HT 12 [20]

HP 11
Will 11 [5]
Per 10
FP 12

Basic Lift 24
Damage 1d/2d-1

Basic Speed 7
Basic Move 11 [15] (Basic Move includes +1 from 'Wood Elf (Dungeon Fantasy)')

Ground Move 11
Water Move 2

Social Background
TL: 3 [0]
Cultural Familiarities:
Languages: Elvish (Native) [0].

Advantages [107]
Appearance (Attractive) [4*]
Chi Mastery Damage Resistance (1) (Chi; Tough Skin) [3]
Chi Mastery Striking ST (2) (Chi) [9]
Chi Talent (2) [30]
Combat Reflexes [15]
Forest Guardian (2) [10*]
Magery 0 [5*]
Trained By A Master [30]
* = item is owned by another, point value is included in the other item.

Perks [0]
Elven Gear [1*]
* = item is owned by another, point value is included in the other item.

Disadvantages [-50]
Code of Honor (Bushido) [-15]
Disciplines of Faith (Chi Rituals) [-10]
Honesty (12 or less) [-10]
Obsession (Perfect my art at any cost) (12 or less) [-10]
Racial ST Penalty (-1) [-10*]
Sense of Duty (Adventuring companions) [-5]
Sense of Duty (Nature) [-15*]
* = item is owned by another, point value is included in the other item.

Quirks [-5]
_Unused Quirk 1 [-1]
_Unused Quirk 2 [-1]
_Unused Quirk 3 [-1]
_Unused Quirk 4 [-1]
_Unused Quirk 5 [-1]

Skills [38]
Acrobatics DX/H - DX-1 15 [2]
Blind Fighting Per/VH - Per+0 10 [2]
includes: +2 from 'Chi Talent'
Bow DX/A - DX+1 17 [1]
includes: +2 from 'Forest Guardian'
Breaking Blow IQ/H - IQ+1 11 [2]
includes: +2 from 'Chi Talent'
Breath Control HT/H - HT+1 13 [2]
includes: +2 from 'Chi Talent'
Climbing DX/A - DX-1 15 [1]
Fast-Draw (Arrow) DX/E - DX+3 19 [1]
includes: +2 from 'Forest Guardian', +1 from 'Combat Reflexes'
Judo DX/H - DX+0 16 [4]
Jumping DX/E - DX+0 16 [1]
Karate DX/H - DX+0 16 [4]
Kiai HT/H - HT+1 13 [2]
includes: +2 from 'Chi Talent'
Light Walk DX/H - DX+1 17 [2]
includes: +2 from 'Chi Talent'
Meditation Will/H - Will-1 10 [2]
Parry Missile Weapons DX/H - DX+1 17 [2]
includes: +2 from 'Chi Talent'
Push DX/H - DX+1 17 [2]
includes: +2 from 'Chi Talent'
Running HT/A - HT-1 11 [1]
Staff DX/A - DX+0 16 [2]
Stealth DX/A - DX+1 17 [1]
includes: +2 from 'Forest Guardian'
Sweep (Staff) Tech/H - 13 [0]
Tactics IQ/H - IQ+0 10 [4]

Stats [160] Ads [107] Disads [-50] Quirks [-5] Skills [38] = Total [250]

Hand Weapons
1 Quarterstaff LC:4 $10 Wgt:4
staff swing Dam:2d+1 cr Reach:1,2 Parry:14 ST:7† Skill:Staff
staff thrust Dam:1d+2 cr Reach:1,2 Parry:14 ST:7† Skill:Staff

Ranged Weapons
1 Longbow LC:4 Dam:1d+2 imp Acc:3 Range:195 / 260
RoF:1 Shots:1(2) ST:11† Bulk:-8 Rcl: $200 Wgt:3 Notes:[3]

Armor & Possessions
1 Blanket $20 Wgt:4 Location: Sack
1 Boots $84 Wgt:3 Location:feet
1 Canteen $10 Wgt:3 Location: Sack
1 Leather Gloves $33 Wgt:0 Location:hands
1 Leather Helm $25 Wgt:.5 Location:skull, face
1 Leather Jacket $83 Wgt:4 Location:arms, torso
1 Leather Pants $60 Wgt:3 Location:legs, groin
1 Personal Basics $5 Wgt:1 Location: Sack
1 Rope, 3/8'' (per 10 yards) $5 Wgt:1.5 Location: Sack
1 Sack $30 Wgt:3 Location: hand
1 Shoulder Quiver $110 Wgt:.5 Location: torso
2 Torch $6 Wgt:2 Location: Sack
12 Traveler's Rations $24 Wgt:6 Location: Sack

Last edited by DAT; 01-31-2014 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:31 AM   #18
Critical
 
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Default Re: [DF] Help making an effective Martial Artist

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Originally Posted by JMason View Post
The "strength" of the character seems to be in the special skills granted from TbaM, but requiring a bunch of these instead of just a couple with lots of points makes them mostly useless in combat. Combined with most of them based on IQ, Will, Per, or HT (only 5 are DX based) means that there is no way to buy them up to effective levels. And since many of these take a -10 to use instantly, -5 for one second, means that a skill of less than 17 isn't worth it.
I am in the camp that thinks Trained By A Master is highly overrated, especially in a game like DF where Magery is on the table. About the best way to use TBAM is to take Extra Attack and go big with Kiai; anything else is kind of a waste of time.

The easiest way to make a powerhouse martial artist is to just get a very high base skill and use techniques, rapid strikes, and targetted attacks all the time. Spin attacks are especially deadly in this context. You can take your base skill up to about 26 in karate or judo before it srarts to be overkill.

Another route to take is to make a martial artist mage. Body Control, Movement, and Protection are all great. Or, you could give a nod to kung-fu cinema by building the martial artist's magic around the five elements: fire, water, wood, metal, and earth. All you really need is Deathtouch, though, to make a deadly martial artist mage. Just consider a martial artist with high skill launching deceptive attacks with Deathtouch; that's going to sting. The Steelwraith angle has already been mentioned, but that is another great combo. Some of the coolest characters in kung-fu cinema and anime have been sorcerous martial artists; the concept happens to work well in GURPS, too.

In settings without Magery or high mana, where magic isn't generally an option, TBAM gets a little more interesting, though as has been noted, it is very expensive to get the various cinematic skills to a high enough level for them to be reliable.

I am not a DF player so I am not familiar with the DF template for a martial artist, but if you think it isn't suitable, you should adjust it away from its weak points. If TBAM is mandatory, consider dropping it and letting people get it if they want or use the points otherwise if they don't.
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Old 02-01-2014, 08:58 AM   #19
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Default Re: [DF] Help making an effective Martial Artist

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Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker View Post
Sorry, my bad, Punching only would be -60%. Unarmed only would be -40%
In the spirit of that PK-quote, what would the limitation on 'Only Thrusts from Knife, Shortsword or any of fist loads, saps, sword-hilt or other Brawling-based attacks' be? Does it qualify for -40%
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Old 02-01-2014, 09:19 AM   #20
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Default Re: [DF] Help making an effective Martial Artist

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
In the spirit of that PK-quote, what would the limitation on 'Only Thrusts from Knife, Shortsword or any of fist loads, saps, sword-hilt or other Brawling-based attacks' be? Does it qualify for -40%
Well, Kromm indicates that Thrust damage only is -20%, which is more narrow than what you are indicating, but this is broader than "Unarmed only." I would probably split the difference and call it -30%

Last edited by the_matrix_walker; 02-01-2014 at 09:23 AM.
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