3 Character Types: Fighter, Wizard, Mixed (Bard, Cleric, Monk)

[flankspeed]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

You could make the same argument that Alchemists and Mechanicians are "Rare", but they're still a Talent not a Class.

Well said! I do realize that magic is supposed to be difficult to master and require some innate aptitude, but I think the Hero/Wizard distinction is perhaps most useful for game balance in a one-shot combat scenario being played out wth both Melee and Wizard.

In a campaign setting, I would like the rules as written to give maximum freedom to the characters while still allowing the GM to institute any appropriate restrictions.

[JLV]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

You could make the same argument that Alchemists and Mechanicians are "Rare", but they're still a Talent not a Class.

You could, of course -- but I think the difference is obvious. One is rare, according to the ITL book, because so few that can handle the energies are born. The other is rare because there aren't many ways to learn the skills in your average village...

[flankspeed]

Originally Posted by JLV

You could, of course -- but I think the difference is obvious. One is rare, according to the ITL book, because so few that can handle the energies are born. The other is rare because there aren't many ways to learn the skills in your average village...

I believe the distinction is in TFT for the purpose of mechanical game balance, and is probably an artifact of how the system developed: Melee first, then Wizard, then the Advanced rules plus In The Labyrinth. In order to design the first two combat games, there needed to be balance between Hero and Wizard characters.

Now that the distinction is baked into TFT though, it also forces the game into the “magic is rare” campaign setting. I merely would like the game to be free from any particular setting and artificial restrictions, but I know that is not going to happen and that’s okay. It’s just my personal preference, not anything that prevents me from enjoying the game immensely.

[JLV]

I don't actually have any problem with what you want, you know. I just feel differently about it. I like my peanut butter separate from my chocolate, and you like peanut butter cups! Vive la differance!

At the same time, I'd still like to see the rules for doing it my way in there, though I have zero objection to including rules to do it your way (or Steve could just say; "If you don't want to differentiate between Wizards and Warriors to this extent, simply ignore the increased Spell and Talent XP costs and have everyone pay the same regardless of character type.")

Regardless, that's one of those incredibly easy to "house-rule" things that I can live with either way in the final product! ;-)

[flankspeed]

Responding to JLV:

Given the need for game balance concerning the combat focus of Melee, Wizard, and all the advanced rules, it seems the Hero/Wizard distinction belongs in the official rules. I would not even change that in most campaigns since I do tend to favor a “Lord of the Rings” or “Conan the Barbarian” perspective on fantasy.

I think I mostly enjoy the class-less system in my computer RPGs like Skyrim or The Witcher 3, where I like to be free to play the game however I want. I do still enjoy D&D though, both tabletop and computer. I won’t complain about the rules as written, but if my players wanted more of a Skyrim feeling to a campaign, I could agree to that.

[JLV]

I hear ya, flankspeed -- and if my players came to me and told me they really wanted to do magic differently, I'd accommodate their wishes too. After all, if they aren't having any fun, neither am I!

[Nils_Lindeberg]

Game balance wise there are advantages to mixing the two and therefor it should be a cost connected to it. I think the cost now is too steep. Twice the cost for talents and tripple for spells.

I would prefer that the advantages of a wizard, like being able to cast spells without a DX penalty, can use scrolls, free magic language at a certain IQ level, etc, should be converted to 1pnt talents. Like magical Aptitude, Formal Wizardly Training, etc.

And likewise the HTH bonus dmg for Fighter and maybe some other advantage could become talents as well.

And then maybe a dual class talent that reduces the cost to x1, that is a normal cost, for both spells and talents. That means that if you want to do more than dabble on the other side of the fence, you can get the proper talents and then be half and half, but at a cost.

One could even remove the distinction of classes all together and use the wizardly perks as a threshold to make sure that not everyone is a wizard to keep it rare. And you could make a package deal of it for simple character creation that is called Wizardly background and a similar one for Fighters where they get a few extra mundane talents, like a profession and maybe even a free weapon to go with the free language. To compensate.

OP suggestion to add a new class that instead of paying x1 and x3 OR x3 and x1 you pay x2 and x2. Is not a balanced one. You will always want to go with the Fighter or Wizard depending on where you spent the majority of your talent/spell points. A better version would be maybe, x1.5 and x1.5 or some such. There is also the question of the Wizards other advantages, like being able to cast spells from a book and not get -4 on DX when casting.

[flankspeed]

Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg

Game balance wise there are advantages to mixing the two and therefor it should be a cost connected to it. I think the cost now is too steep. Twice the cost for talents and tripple for spells.

I would prefer that the advantages of a wizard, like being able to cast spells without a DX penalty, can use scrolls, free magic language at a certain IQ level, etc, should be converted to 1pnt talents. Like magical Aptitude, Formal Wizardly Training, etc.

And likewise the HTH bonus dmg for Fighter and maybe some other advantage could become talents as well.

And then maybe a dual class talent that reduces the cost to x1, that is a normal cost, for both spells and talents. That means that if you want to do more than dabble on the other side of the fence, you can get the proper talents and then be half and half, but at a cost.

One could even remove the distinction of classes all together and use the wizardly perks as a threshold to make sure that not everyone is a wizard to keep it rare. And you could make a package deal of it for simple character creation that is called Wizardly background and a similar one for Fighters where they get a few extra mundane talents, like a profession and maybe even a free weapon to go with the free language. To compensate.

OP suggestion to add a new class that instead of paying x1 and x3 OR x3 and x1 you pay x2 and x2. Is not a balanced one. You will always want to go with the Fighter or Wizard depending on where you spent the majority of your talent/spell points. A better version would be maybe, x1.5 and x1.5 or some such. There is also the question of the Wizards other advantages, like being able to cast spells from a book and not get -4 on DX when casting.

Thank you for some good food for thought! In TFT as it is now, there is a need to balance the Hero and Wizard characters. I find this such an artificial distinction that reminds of D&D, and I don't want to be reminded of D&D when I play TFT. I like D&D for what it is, but I don't want to play classes when I am playing TFT.

I was thinking of how The Elder Scrolls: Skyrim gives everyone complete freedom, and therefore the game is balanced because anyone can do anything. I think I like the idea of making Wizard abilities into Talents so that anyone who wants to cast spells or read scrolls or use magic books or create magic items can simply take the appropriate Talent.

I'm just rambling about this in a philosophical way to consider home brew options. I don't think the official rules as written will ever change to eliminate the character classes of Hero and Wizard because they are needed to balance straight up combat duels in the arena apart from roleplaying.

[Nils_Lindeberg]

They might change the Hero/Wizard class division. In an arena setting to make an optimal gish, you wouldn't need many spells. And can probably make due with one or two and take the cost talent wise. The bigger problem is -4DX to cast, and the need for silver equipment.

I would also like to put the last D&D class artefacts behind us and even though there is a Melee and a Wizard game, it doesn't mean we can't mix and match in a more normal campaign setting. Make everyone a Hero and let them pick spells for free (a one for one cost) if they want them. And then a couple of talents to remove the -4DX, being able to cast from a book, etc.

Wizards would be a little gimped since they would have to buy what they used to get for free, and so have fewer spells. But on the other hand they could now be less of a retarded social outcast, since they could buy some professions talents, maybe a social talent or two or even a weapon talent so they are not useless when their ST runs low. I don't think it would be a bad deal for them in a RPG campaign setting. And in an arena fight a wizard won't have time to use most of their spells anyways.

[flankspeed]

I really like the idea of making Wizard abilities into Talents rather than something they get for free that Hero characters will never be able to obtain.

It would be so nice for everyone to pay the same costs for Talents and Spells, and for magic-users to be distinguished by having learned magical skills rather than possessing some innate magical aptitude that is an artificial distinction of class-based systems.

The rules-as-written treat TFT Wizards more like D&D sorcerers, casting spells by some inherent ability rather than by book learning the way D&D wizards do.

I think it is reasonable to have magic users who learned to cast spells but can't create or read scrolls, can't create spell books, can't create magic items, can't create a staff, etc.

The following proposed Talents/Spells are just off-the-cuff thinking out loud, and they undoubtedly require revision.


Spellcasting (IQ 8) (1): Basic ability to cast spells by making gestures, reciting incantations, and using components. Eliminates the -4 DX to cast spells.

Staff (IQ 8) (1) (S): Spell to create a wand or staff. Cost 5 ST.

Runes, Sigils, and Wards (IQ 10) (2): Ability to read and write mystic runes and sigils, which allows the creation and use of spell scrolls, spell books, and mystic wards such as pentagrams.

Enchantment (IQ 12) (2): Ability to imbue items with permanent magical properties.

Alchemy (IQ 14) (3): Ability to create magical potions, ointments, and powders.