Does Telekinesis include senses of touch and proprioception

[Apollonian]

Does standard telekinesis include a sense of touch, and if so, how sensitive is it?

Ditto proprioception - the ability to tell where your "hands" are without looking.

Given the ability's description of granting the character a pair of "invisible hands" with a 10' range, I assume that the sense of touch matches the characters actual hands, but I'm looking for confirmation either for or against.

[whswhs]

Since Telekinesis explicitly includes such things as tractor beams and magnetic fields, which aren't solid and lack surfaces, I wouldn't think it could give you a projected sense of touch; that wouldn't apply in those cases, and I don't see anything that calls out the lack of ranged touch as a special feature. I would say that you must guide your telekinesis by vision, Scanning Sense, Vibration Sense, or some other ranged sense that gives you awareness of solid objects.

I would probably allow proprioception, though. On one hand you know what position your phantom hands are in, but on the other you can't see them. So you must be able to visualize them in a way that gives you an equivalent of proprioceptive feedback.

I might let you buy Detect Solid Objects with Analysis as a mechanic for remote touch. Or you could apply the Ranged modifier to the sense of touch as discussed in Enhanced Senses: the modifier is +40%, and the point cost is 1/10 of the percentile, so you could get a sense of touch at range for 4 points, letting you feel things at 10 yards by default (there's a Max range of 100 yards, but I'm not sure what "half damage" would mean for the sense of touch!).

I hope this helps.

[Varyon]

My inclination would be that there would be a degree of proprioception, but not of touch. So you can tell if the foe you're grappling is breaking free of your grip, if there's a solid barrier preventing your hands from pulling something through an opening, etc, but you can't tell how hot/cold or hard/soft something is (although with something particularly yielding, you can tell your "hand" is pushing forward into it), or what sort of textures something has (so you can't use it to read braille from across the room). If you want those sorts of detail, you need Clairsentience (Touch Only), possibly Linked to your Telekinesis. I think Touch Only is at least as restrictive as Smell Only (Clairosmia), so -60% may be appropriate (-70% or -80% may be justifiable).

EDIT:

Originally Posted by whswhs

Or you could apply the Ranged modifier to the sense of touch as discussed in Enhanced Senses: the modifier is +40%, and the point cost is 1/10 of the percentile, so you could get a sense of touch at range for 4 points, letting you feel things at 10 yards by default (there's a Max range of 100 yards, but I'm not sure what "half damage" would mean for the sense of touch!).

That could potentially also work, although I'd be inclined to require an uninterrupted "line of effect" between oneself and what you're touching, such that if your hand shot off and traveled in a straight line it could touch the target (so you can't use this to feel inside of a locked room by going through the keyhole, feel something on the other side of a window, or feel the front of something that you're standing behind). As for 1/2D, I think generally effects where that doesn't make sense just ignore the difference - there's no 1/2D to deal with, only Max. Alternatively, you could have anything beyond 1/2D be more muted - Affliction has targets beyond 1/2D get a +3 to resist, so a -3 to any Sense Rolls using Touch beyond 1/2D might make sense (although personally I'd lean toward -4).

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Varyon

My inclination would be that there would be a degree of proprioception, but not of touch. So you can tell if the foe you're grappling is breaking free of your grip, if there's a solid barrier preventing your hands from pulling something through an opening, etc, but you can't tell how hot/cold or hard/soft something is (although with something particularly yielding, you can tell your "hand" is pushing forward into it), or what sort of textures something has (so you can't use it to read braille from across the room). If you want those sorts of detail, you need Clairsentience (Touch Only), possibly Linked to your Telekinesis. I think Touch Only is at least as restrictive as Smell Only (Clairosmia), so -60% may be appropriate (-70% or -80% may be justifiable).

I hadn't thought of using Clairsentience, but other than that, we seem to be in agreement. And the suggestion of Clairsentience seems quite appropriate.

That could potentially also work, although I'd be inclined to require an uninterrupted "line of effect" between oneself and what you're touching, such that if your hand shot off and traveled in a straight line it could touch the target (so you can't use this to feel inside of a locked room by going through the keyhole, feel something on the other side of a window, or feel the front of something that you're standing behind). As for 1/2D, I think generally effects where that doesn't make sense just ignore the difference - there's no 1/2D to deal with, only Max. Alternatively, you could have anything beyond 1/2D be more muted - Affliction has targets beyond 1/2D get a +3 to resist, so a -3 to any Sense Rolls using Touch beyond 1/2D might make sense (although personally I'd lean toward -4).

All of that makes sense.

[awesomenessofme1]

Clairsentience explicitly only applies to ranged senses. Don't think it would really break anything to be able to use it with touch, but I thought it should be noted it isn't RAW.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

Clairsentience explicitly only applies to ranged senses. Don't think it would really break anything to be able to use it with touch, but I thought it should be noted it isn't RAW.

I hadn't checked that. On one hand you could buy Ranged for your sense of touch for 4 points, and then it would be included in Clairsentience (or perhaps you could get it separately for -60% on Clairsentience). On the other, if you buy Ranged for your sense of touch it seems as if you may already have what you need.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

Clairsentience explicitly only applies to ranged senses. Don't think it would really break anything to be able to use it with touch, but I thought it should be noted it isn't RAW.

Nah, I specifically searched for it, and came across this Krommpost, which indicates Clairsentience would include sense of touch. I think the language that described it as specific to ranged senses (which is basically everything but touch, seeing as taste is just a subset of smell) was something of a mistake.

Of course, it also occurs to me that a sort of ranged Touch already exists - Vibration Sense (Air).

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Nah, I specifically searched for it, and came across this Krommpost, which indicates Clairsentience would include sense of touch. I think the language that described it as specific to ranged senses (which is basically everything but touch, seeing as taste is just a subset of smell) was something of a mistake.

Of course, it also occurs to me that a sort of ranged Touch already exists - Vibration Sense (Air).

Huh. Well, that's just weird. Emphasizing the word ranged and then writing out a specific list of what's covered certainly makes it seem like they put thought into it and it wasn't just a mistake, but the post you linked is there nonetheless.

[Plane]

I would imagine there's some limited amount of it otherwise manipulating things would be very complicated.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

Huh. Well, that's just weird. Emphasizing the word ranged and then writing out a specific list of what's covered certainly makes it seem like they put thought into it and it wasn't just a mistake, but the post you linked is there nonetheless.

Hard to say. Maybe they couldn't think of a use for it. Maybe they couldn't find a name for it (best I can find for it online is clairtangency... which sounds more like what happens when one posts on the GURPS forums from a mobile device). Maybe they really did intend for it not to be available (basically "if you want to feel things at a distance, take Vibration Sense"), and Kromm had forgotten and/or changed his mind since then. Personally, I don't think it's a problem, particularly if you link it to TK for a "you can feel what you're manipulating" kind of effect.

Originally Posted by Plane

I would imagine there's some limited amount of it otherwise manipulating things would be very complicated.

Yeah, if there were no feedback at all the TK "hands" would probably have Hamfisted and/or Bad Grip. But I don't think TK 1 should just give you the ability to feel anything in range of your TK - rather, you need only what's necessary to use it without stuff getting problematic ("Oh, sorry, you didn't realize the MacGuffin was caught on something, and because your TK is really strong, you broke it trying to pull it toward you").