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Old 06-25-2022, 03:59 PM   #21
KarlKost
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
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Default Re: Compilation of source material for new players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Experienced players were new players at some point.

When I was a new player it would have driven me away to be given a list of volumes in addition to the basic set that I needed to buy to play.
That's VERY true. Nothing more than the Basic Set should go to new players (in fact, a smaller and less complex version of it). Telling a newcomer "oh, and dont forget to read Fantasy, Magic, Thaumatology and Horror too!" is the best way to make sure they wont come back.

Anything besides de Basic should be EXTRAS - ie those juicy abilities for the power hungry players to search for more and for the dedicated GMs to enrich their games.



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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Yes, it is, unless for some reason you think every pearl diver should be an expert moutaineer.
I dont think that matters that much as you think. There are RPGs that have just Athletics - hell, there are RPGs that dont even have skills! AD&D, which is D&D 2e, didnt have any. This is a RPG where you raise your sword, hand wave your spells, and let them fall on endless hordes of weirder and weirder creatures in return of delicious and juicy XP and loot.

Sure a "Mountain-climbing" RPG would want to make that distinction, but most of the time people wont be constantly pearl diving AND mountain climbing to make it so important; I firmly believe that less is more where it concerns newcomers. And, over time, they get to decide wether to introduce all the details from Basic - like Easy, Average, Hard and VH skills, techniques, unique defaults and the full range of specializations, or not, or if they stick to "Lite" for a more fast and loose game. I think that kind of option should be more evident for newplayers and veterans alike.
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Old 06-25-2022, 04:05 PM   #22
KarlKost
 
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Default Re: Compilation of source material for new players

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Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
The simple solution to big skill lists, odd defaults, etc. is to just use Wildcard skills.

Wildcard skills are all VH x 5 CP, don't allow defaults from other skills, and are a much better fit for fast, rules-lite games.
Wildcard skills have an entire PDF to describe them, with alternate additional advantages, Wildcard Points and suggestions on how to make each one of them - who are all based on the standard skills.

Also, their costs are outrageous - which is why they offer additional advantages and Wildcard Points, to make them more palatable.

That's not a simpler solution - unless you take them for their broader application and just treat them with the regular prices for standard skills at Average or Hard prices, and cut all the rest.
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Old 06-25-2022, 04:14 PM   #23
KarlKost
 
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Default Re: Compilation of source material for new players

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Originally Posted by Willy View Post
Iīm the opinion that we can let out some parts for easier entry to the core game mechanics, but each part we take should be according to the rules in the Basic Set and / or specific supplements. That includes the needed points to learn them.

Because if we do something like all skills are just average difficulty, the newby getīs a easier entry, but once he will play "normal" GURPS he will stumble over that tripwires, same goes for other point costs. He had basically to learn 2 different games with closely related rules, which will lead to frustation.

Anything we take should be a basic layer, which works in itself and the foundation for added complexity and the full rules.

Like the combat system, you donīt start with the full system optional wounding rules and so on. You start with basic combat system, which is complex enough, and from there go further - if you want to!

We should keep in mind that a new player will not have a experienced player as mentor more often than not. He should be able to grasp the system by himself. If he is pointed to the right sources.
Well, you could call it "Simplified Skills", and if you think charging them as Average will make the newbies "lazy" with their CPs, you could charge a flat Hard price, and a flat Default-6, at least for the "Lite" version; just compare to Ultra-Lite for instance, so it would still be a step closer. Then, on basic set you just place "Skills Expanded", and a note explaining that there will be additional options for extra realism.

After that, those who decide to stick with the flat hard prices and flat default-6, I see no problem with that - all rules are optional nonetheless in Gurps; the problem many have is into understanding which ones to use or not.
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Old 06-25-2022, 04:50 PM   #24
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Default Re: Compilation of source material for new players

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Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
.... There are RPGs that have just Athletics - hell, there are RPGs that dont even have skills! AD&D, which is D&D 2e, didnt have any.
Indeed, which is one reason GURPS is better than them.
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Old 06-25-2022, 07:29 PM   #25
Willy
 
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Default Re: Compilation of source material for new players

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Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
Well, you could call it "Simplified Skills", and if you think charging them as Average will make the newbies "lazy" with their CPs, you could charge a flat Hard price, and a flat Default-6, at least for the "Lite" version; just compare to Ultra-Lite for instance, so it would still be a step closer. Then, on basic set you just place "Skills Expanded", and a note explaining that there will be additional options for extra realism.

After that, those who decide to stick with the flat hard prices and flat default-6, I see no problem with that - all rules are optional nonetheless in Gurps; the problem many have is into understanding which ones to use or not.
Nope, no way. I understand what you want, but you will get the same problems when 4th Ed came up and most folks mixed it up with old 3 rd Ed rules now and than. Which led to a lot of discussion and frustation.

The reason is to get new players, not scaring them away by the fact they have to relearn the system if changing to the Basic Set. Everything we ( and itīs just a suggestion to SJG ) take into a this list must be according to the rules.

We can just weed out the overhead and spare some unneccessary ( for the first start ) parts. We can reduce the number of skills, but this skills have to work the same way as in Basic Set. We can say we use no Talents, Powers, Perks whatsoever to make it more streamlined. But thatīs it. Once a player is fluent with the reduced rules, he should be able to use this to get a grip at the Basic Set.

Because the other way we just create a alternate GURPS, with drastically reduced options.


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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Indeed, which is one reason GURPS is better than them.
One of many other reasons, a lot of other reasons.
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Old 06-25-2022, 11:51 PM   #26
Inky
 
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Default Re: Compilation of source material for new players

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Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
So, my advice will be as it always is:

Advantages/Disadvantages: I honestly think that's the easiest part (aside from Attributes), so I would keep it. That's also the great seller of Gurps, making customizable abilities.

Enhancements/Limitations: again, not complex, and where Gurps really shines. I would add however the considerations of Powers, with the many examples on how to use them for each Advantage (it could include examples on Disadvantages too) on how to create unique abilities with them - for example, just bellow "Visualization", include "with Reduced Time 7 (+140%) it becomes instantaneous, being usable during combat, albeit at 1/3 of MoS due to the changing nature of combat" and others.

Perks and Quirks: drop it.

Skills: simpler lists. No differences between skills, all are "Average" (no need to mention). Modifiers are the basic from BAD with speed and equip modifiers at most. Default is always a flat Attribute-5. Drop familiarity, drop specializations, drop Techniques.

Combat: here is where my Gurps colleagues hate me, but my suggestions are:
- damage: flat. Forget "thrust" or "swing" damage; each level of ST has ONE amount of damage. Muscular weapons add or deduce from that. For example: ST 20, 2d+1 damage (just random hypothetical value). Big 2 hands sword, +5 damage (therefore 20 ST deals 2d+6 with it).
- Damage Resistance/Reduction: flat. RD reduces damage by it's value. No more to be said or added, drop anything besides that.
- Bleeding, disease, poison, hunger or any other hazards: flat damage on either HP or FP (or even both). No further complications added.
- Hit Locations: drop it.
- Combat Maneuvers: drop it. Only maneuvers are "Attack" and "Defense" (dodge or parry)
- Dodge: fine as is.
- Parry/Block: flat number unrelated to skills. Each weapon offers a different bonus/penalty to Parry. Shields offer bigger bonuses. Instead of calling those as "parry" and "block" separetely, just call it "Defense". For example, "Basic Defense is 10; large shields give +5, longswords give +2 and rapier swords +3. No more.
- Movement: up to moving speed.
- Ranged Attacks: no 1/2 D, no aim no nothing. Flat damage, each weapon may give a bonus or penalty to use them; no distance modifiers.
- No knockback or other special conditions and situations.
The ideas for simplified rules are interesting, but it looks like this thread is for explanations of the GURPS rules, not for altering the rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Experienced players were new players at some point.

When I was a new player it would have driven me away to be given a list of volumes in addition to the basic set that I needed to buy to play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
That's VERY true. Nothing more than the Basic Set should go to new players (in fact, a smaller and less complex version of it). Telling a newcomer "oh, and dont forget to read Fantasy, Magic, Thaumatology and Horror too!" is the best way to make sure they wont come back.
Makes sense. But it looks like that's not what it's doing. The list seems to be for blog articles, etc., not extra books. The blue text is confusing, but I think the blue text is saying which books the articles are based on, not saying that new players should buy the books themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
The simple solution to big skill lists, odd defaults, etc. is to just use Wildcard skills.

Wildcard skills are all VH x 5 CP, don't allow defaults from other skills, and are a much better fit for fast, rules-lite games.
VH x 3 is what it says in the book. Not quite so expensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
Wildcard skills have an entire PDF to describe them, with alternate additional advantages, Wildcard Points and suggestions on how to make each one of them - who are all based on the standard skills.

Also, their costs are outrageous - which is why they offer additional advantages and Wildcard Points, to make them more palatable.

That's not a simpler solution - unless you take them for their broader application and just treat them with the regular prices for standard skills at Average or Hard prices, and cut all the rest.
Stick to the Basic Set right back at you! :-D Wildcard Skills are explained in the Basic Set (page 175), in less than a page. That explanation is usable and quite useful by itself, so an explanation for newcomers wouldn't need to go into any extended rules that might be in the Power-Ups PDF (I haven't read it and don't know what it does say).
Maybe add a note that not everyone agrees with the Basic Set's instructions to use them only for specific things in unrealistic games, and list some other things that some people use them for. For instance, making a character in a big hurry (themook.net's "The Seven-Minute GURPS Character" does this, giving an example character with four skills - Space Ranger!-12, Laser Pistol-15, Brawling-14 and Fast Talk-11). Or for skills that just won't come up often and are interesting to have just in case or for decoration but not worth the time to spell out skill by skill, like Science! in a war game. Or somebody on here (not sure who) says he/she uses it as a quick way to make NPC stat blocks - Thug!-11, meaning skill 11 for "anything a hired thug would need to know how to do".
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Old 06-26-2022, 07:52 PM   #27
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Compilation of source material for new players

I really don't get what omitting How to Learn GURPS and the Quick Start gets you. FWIW, I only expect new players to read the Quick Start.
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Old 06-27-2022, 03:54 PM   #28
Mark Skarr
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Default Re: Compilation of source material for new players

I just introduced two new-to-GURPS players to the game yesterday (6/26/22). I didn't use anything fancy (well, other than Tabletop Simulator that they were already familiar with--that's where I found them). I gave them some Pregen characters, gave them a once-over explanation of what the traits meant, and then we dove in to play.

We had a fun crashed space-ship-meets-Cthulhu-meets-Aliens fun with some combat, investigation and failed fright checks (thank you for the natural 18 on a Will check, that made everything better!). Cyclic Corrosion attacks dissolving a Space Biosuit, fart jokes, an engineer that couldn't hit a car-sized spider one yard away firing a laser pistol on full auto. It was a good session.

Today, I got this message from one of the players in my Discord.

I think the greatest asset for new players is a GM who wants them to enjoy themselves and not get lost in the intricacies and nuance of GURPS. There'll be time, later, to learn how to make a character on your own. Don't get caught in the weeds, go jump in and do something. Right or wrong, at least you did something.

To teach people GURPS don't start by teaching them GURPS. Start by showing them what they can do with GURPS. If they know how to role-play, then they already know how to play GURPS, they just don't know the mechanics. Take what they already know and run with it.

Roll some dice.

Have fun.

Play.
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