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Old 06-28-2022, 11:53 AM   #51
KarlKost
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
Default Re: GURPS MAGIC: Day in the life of a spell inventor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
You make a valid point to a degree. The more spells a character has, the more what he knows, will fulfill prerequisites. In theory, 2 spells from each of Air, Fire, Water, and Earth colleges - not only helps you gain one spell that required 2 spells from each elemental college, but can also count as requisite counts towards Enchantment.
That doesnt really matter thou, does it? You need to already know all the prereqs for the spell you're making. If "Origame Spell" requires "Create Paper" and "Fold Paper" spells (both with 0 theoretical prereqs) you need to know both before inventing "Origami Spell" AND your invention roll is at -2 regardless.



Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
This is not your typical mage by any means. IQ 20 is not supposed to be even a normal human being either, but a LEGENDARY being, the likes ow which the universe shall never see again. Add in Magery 3 (or 4 - which breaks the original fantasy rules of magery never being higher than 3) - coupled with a legendary IQ, would be even more unusual (statistically speaking.
"Alright guys, time to make the spell, that's after all why I called you. DaVinci, are you ready? Einstein, Newton, are you all set? Ok guys, so if you're all ready, let me begin, please assist me as best as you can..."
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Old 07-01-2022, 05:06 PM   #52
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: GURPS MAGIC: Day in the life of a spell inventor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
I think what Amazo has is more of a Neutralize with Power Theft, Permanent +300%, Cosmic +300%, Malediction and Ranged and a new Limitation (Power Theft Only), for an ability that is absolutely unsuitable to be allowed to players EVER because it allows you to permanently copy ANY and ALL abilities of anyone that you look at (just like Amazo do).

It aint MA
Could definitely depend on which version we're talking about, like the Amazo in YJ may not align with how he functions in the comics (haven't read them). In this version he had to announce aloud each hero he was emulating ("designating... Martian Manhunter!" before turning Insubstantial, for example) and didn't seem to be able to use them concurrently.

YJ's Amazo was definitely very different from the one you saw in the earlier JLU series, one of the key contrasts which dashed my "maybe YJ could be in the DCAU" hopes.

I'm not sure how to get that w/ Power Theft Only Neutralize unless you maybe had multiple versions of Neutralize as Alternative Attacks for storing different heroes' power patterns? AA switches as a free action but it seems like switching between power sets gained by Alternative Neutralize attacks should at least require a ready.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Most of Kromm's notes on the 3E versions of the spells were ignored, as were all the really good fan-provided fixes for problem spells.
Do you know where we can find this? Not sure where to look for pre-2005 content like this.

While your efforts to make sense of spell invention using GURPS Magic are heroic, I think they're doomed due to ill-considered game design and the rush to get the product out the door.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
Again, playing devil's advocate. Burning 1 CP in order to save 5-10 weeks of effort is a huge convenience for a mage in a hurry.

Inventing a new spell in just a day is highly appropriate, at least for some campaign settings.
Yeah I'd definitely be burning bonusCP for success for something that involves a lot of wasted bonusCP on flub-spells.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
RAW you have to spend the point on the spell you're inventing.
No, the prototype TESTER does :) this is why we have acolytes, so they can invest the character point in case it's a flub. If it succeeds THEN the wise inventor can spend the point too.

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Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
MAs are at least cinematic; we'd have to assume that ALL spells inventors have them, which isnt realistic
Allowing the purchase of adequately hamstrung MA for spell invention seems realistic (as realistic as MAGIC goes) to me. Limiting it to "spells I personally invented" takes away the "I just pull spells out of nowhere" type of Cosmic Power you might be envisioning.
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Old 07-01-2022, 06:27 PM   #53
KarlKost
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
Default Re: GURPS MAGIC: Day in the life of a spell inventor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Could definitely depend on which version we're talking about, like the Amazo in YJ may not align with how he functions in the comics (haven't read them). In this version he had to announce aloud each hero he was emulating ("designating... Martian Manhunter!" before turning Insubstantial, for example) and didn't seem to be able to use them concurrently.
Really? I did not know that. I only saw the insanely absurd version from JLU where in the very first episode he just simply copied all the powers from the entire "Team A" of the Justice league, permanently - thus Superman's strenght and invulnerability and flight and laser eyes and... Everything else, Flash's speed, even the Green Lantern ring, and the Martian full psi powers. And even made those better - becoming immune to kryptonite at the second time he met Batman with it.

So, completely broken.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I'm not sure how to get that w/ Power Theft Only Neutralize unless you maybe had multiple versions of Neutralize as Alternative Attacks for storing different heroes' power patterns? AA switches as a free action but it seems like switching between power sets gained by Alternative Neutralize attacks should at least require a ready.
It's Neutralize with Power Theft Only and a Permanent duration, meaning it would stack forever.

The mutant Rogue also has this, but with Uncontrollabe Trigger (skin contact) that is also an Affliction I guess... If she actually kills the target (or gets close to) it becomes permanent.

Besides her "psiquic vampirism", Rogue also has Super Strenght, Super Resistance and Flight. But those arent her natural powers however, she stole those from Captain Marvel if Im not mistaken (which I believe it was another girl than the one most know - you know how comics are); also, if Im not mistaken this occured during the judicial battle over the name of the hero "Captain Marvel" for Shazam, so the writters of Marvel placed Captain Marvel into a coma in case they needed to "kill the name".

Anyway, in both cases it's a permanent theft of power (Rogue can still neutralize on top of that), but that's NOT a power that could be allowed for players under any circumstances - just imagine a player turning into a 750 thousands CP sheet due to the 101 pages of notes of powers he stole.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
While your efforts to make sense of spell invention using GURPS Magic are heroic, I think they're doomed due to ill-considered game design and the rush to get the product out the door.
I think you guys should give a look at my Attributes distribution post. That could help showing why the rules for spell invention dont work in a realistic way, and why you wont just simply casually have a bunch of IQ 20's turning spells out of their hats.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
No, the prototype TESTER does :) this is why we have acolytes, so they can invest the character point in case it's a flub. If it succeeds THEN the wise inventor can spend the point too.
There's a name for this: it's called META-GAMING.

"Character Points" is a game mechanic; it's not a fundamental building block of the universe.

We dont go study in the college and say "oh, I love the classes of history of science from X teacher; I expect to gain 1 full CP by the end of this month in the skill History (Science) by the end of the month, just because of how good the teacher is!"

Likewise, our good mage-inventor is unaware that secretly the universe is conspiring to make him less knowleadgeable in other areas should be persist on prototyping his spells, because he just simply dont think about his magic mastery in terms of "character points spent on spells skills".

To think that a highly skilled mage-inventor would pass the burden of prototyping to assistants instead of doing it himself is absurd.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Allowing the purchase of adequately hamstrung MA for spell invention seems realistic (as realistic as MAGIC goes) to me. Limiting it to "spells I personally invented" takes away the "I just pull spells out of nowhere" type of Cosmic Power you might be envisioning.
It's not realistic to have ALL "Applied" Thaumatological knowledge in the world be dependant on half a dozen of strangely gifted people while every single other mage in the world that ever existed are just a bunch of mimic monkeys.

Stop thinking about those rules being applied to player characters, and think about those rules being applied to realistic NPCs that didnt have the fortune of being Min-Max by some "higher power" fine tunning them. Those were the guys that supposedly invented ALL spells in the world up to the moment the players decided to join in a tavern.
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Old 07-03-2022, 01:30 AM   #54
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: GURPS MAGIC: Day in the life of a spell inventor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post

So, if Magus has say, 40 critical failures on his conceptualization rolls, he has to invest 40 character points in the spell that automatically will not work? If by some miracle, Magus actually gets a roll of a 3 on 3d6, he will have to pay a final 1 point for a spell - and then go to the prototype phase?

Inquiring minds want to know.
I'm not especially concerned by the thought that I might roll 40 critical failures in a row. Or even 3.
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Old 07-17-2022, 10:00 PM   #55
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: GURPS MAGIC: Day in the life of a spell inventor...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Ok, now that I've got a better "Spell Prerequisite Count" table to work off of, the next phase of investigating the Spell invention rules begins.

For now, I'm going to pretend that I've got a player character in someone's gae world (and any who read this can take on the role of a GM and state your responses as you see fit, or simply ask questions of your own, or respond to the responses. :)

The idea here is to make certain that I myself, understand the rules as presented in GURPS MAGIC for 4e and GURPS BASIC SET. At the time GURPS MAGIC for 4e was published, they would have had to stand on their own two feet (so to speak). The reason I state this ahead of time is simple enough:

After future publications came out, optional rules, alternative rules etc - only muddy the waters further. Either the Spell invention rules work - or they don't. One disturbing thing I came across involved the need for player characters to spend character points before they can "learn the spell". Problem is...

If the character THINKS they have a viable spell hammered out due to a critical failure in their conceptualization roll, they will be investing a character point into a spell that will NEVER work. :(

So, here is the background world. In the beginning, all spells with a Spell Prerequisite count of 12 or less have already been invented. Anything with a Spell prerequsite count of 13 or higher - have not. Since magic items increase the Spell Prerequisite count by an additional 13. This would imply that even magic items for spells with a prerequisite count of 0 can't have their magic items invented, because that takes the Prerequisite count to13. For that then, we'll just have to handwave that SOME of the magic items for low spell prerequisite counts have been invented by dint of pure perseverance and genius inventers right?

So, we want to invent Remove Curse. This has a spell prerequisite count of 13. COOL right? The original author was kind enough to spell out the specifics of that spell - in a write up that per the rules on inventing spells, has to be done. This "Mage" of mine, has Thuamatology at 16, and a few spells (not important at the moment) that meet all the prerequisites necessary to research Remove Curse. We'll also assume my character has a fully stocked enchanted workshop capable of handling a prerequisite count 13 spell research project. (We're keeping this as simple as possible right?)

So, let's call my mage Magus (original huh?). Magus spends one full day trying to conceptualize the spell in question. He already has some meta-spells already, so he doesn't suffer a -5 penalty due to not having any spells of the college he's researching. He's not in a low mana zone, so he doesn't suffer that -5 penalty either. His only modifiers for conceptualization of the spell is -13 due to the spell requisite count.

Day 1: Magus spends the day inventing and the GM rolls a 9. Skill 16-13 leaves a modified skill roll of a 3 on 3d6. Nothing happens, Magus doesn't think he has anything that will work.

Day 2: Magus spends a day inventing and the GM rolls a 12. Fortunately, this is not 10 higher than what is needed to succeed, so it isn't a critical failure.

Day 3: Magus gets his bit of expected bad luck, and rolls a 14. This is 10+ higher than the skill required to succeed, and consequently is deemed to be a crit failure.

So - looking at the rules for inventions we have this:

"On a critical failure, the inventor comes up with a “flawed theory” that looks good but that will never work in practice – go on to the next step, but note that it is doomed to failure."

Next step in this case is the prototype development.

But we have to look at the rules for spell invention in GURPS MAGIC, which says this:

"Once the Concept phase has produced a viable incantation, the researcher (or an assistant) must invest a character point in learning the new
spell. At that point, a prototype may be developed.
"

So Magus THINKS he has a viable incantation - but the GM knows it will never work. Does Magus have to invest a character point in the spell before he can actually TRY to cast the spell per what is written on page 15 of GURPS MAGIC? The wording seems to imply that he does, because...

"(this can be done alone; the process is similar to enchantment). The normal Prototype bonuses for qualified assistants apply, though the ceremonial magic penalties for assistants typically offset them. Apply any modifiers from the Concept stage that apply. A critical failure on the Prototype roll is like any other critical failure on a spell; roll on the Critical Spell Failure table (p. 7).
Each attempt takes a full day.
"

So, if Magus has say, 40 critical failures on his conceptualization rolls, he has to invest 40 character points in the spell that automatically will not work? If by some miracle, Magus actually gets a roll of a 3 on 3d6, he will have to pay a final 1 point for a spell - and then go to the prototype phase?

Inquiring minds want to know.
Prior to posting my suggestion for house rules, it seemed like a good idea to review exactly what the rules do say. Below is my commentary, [mostly contained in passages like this] after combining the rules for New Inventions (pp. B473-B474) with the rules for Player-Created Spells (Magic p. 15).

A few names were changed for consistentency/clarity: inventor is now researcher; researchers means "lead researcher [inventor] and his assistants"; invention is "viable incantation" or simply "incantation" [and is not the same as the spoken ritual part of a spell, despite the name]; and prototype is "spell creation."

Inventing New Spells


Required Skills

First, the researcher must know Thaumatology to have any chance of success creating a new spell.

At the GM's discretion, a particular spell might also require skill in one or more related subjects. For instance, inventing a new Plant spell might require Botany or Herbalism skill. If so, the researcher’s Concept roll is made against the lower of this skill or his Thaumatology skill.

The researcher describes the spell he wishes to develop. The GM then writes the spell up in standard format, including class, college, energy cost, casting time, duration and prerequisites. He may decide that the intended spell has prerequisites, which must be learned or invented before research on the intended spell can even begin.


Concept

After determining required skills, the GM makes a secret "Concept roll" against the researcher's Thaumatology skill to see whether he comes up with a viable incantation. This requires no special equipment.

Modifiers: subtract the prerequisite count for the new spell. -5 penalty if the new spell will belong to a college in which the researcher knows no spells. -5 penalty in a low-mana zone.

Each researcher involved (in a group effort) may roll once per day. Prerequisite count doesn't affect the time required - the basic concept for a new spell is often a simple insight ... it's the implementation that’s potentially tricky.

On a success, proceed to the Spell Creation stage. On a failure, the researcher makes no breakthrough but may try again the next day, at no additional penalty. On a critical failure, the researcher comes up with a “flawed incantation" that looks good but that will never work in practice - go on to the Spell Creation stage, but it is doomed to failure.

[post 1 of 2]

Last edited by Curmudgeon; 07-17-2022 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 07-17-2022, 10:01 PM   #56
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: GURPS MAGIC: Day in the life of a spell inventor...

Spell Creation

A success - or critical failure - on the Concept roll gives the researcher a viable incantation. He (or an assistant) must invest 1 character point in learning the new spell before it can be tested as a spell [Without the minimum investment of 1 character point, nobody “knows” the spell well enough to cast it. If nobody casts the spell, nobody knows what alterations to the spell are necessary, or just helpful. The first person to try making a Breathe Steam spell by just making a Steam Jet spell issue from his mouth doubtless became painfully aware that incorporating aspects of Resist Fire would be a good idea, if it worked at all.].

A magical workshop is required with accoutrements that cost $(prerequisite count +1) x (400 energy) x (the setting’s prevailing price per energy point). The researcher and his assistants may choose to offset up to 90% of this investment by enchanting the supplies themselves; 10% of the cost is consumable supplies which must be purchased. Once built a magical workshop may also be used for future research — the non-consumable portion of the workshop may be reused indefinitely (though critical failures may damage or destroy some of that equipment.) [Note that it is implied that the researcher could enchant the necessary accoutrements. Scroll spell aside, any enchantment requires either the Enchant spell, or an Enchantment spell that has Enchant as a prerequisite. The Enchant spell has Magery 2 as a prerequisite, implying that only mages with Magery 2 can research new spells, which makes sense. Creating a new magical effect or application probably should require unusual insight or talent regarding magic itself. On the other hand, Magery 1 researchers may be possible, but they would have to purchase their accoutrements, not having the option of enchanting.]

The Spell Creation roll is a roll against the new spell itself, cast ceremonially (this can be done alone.) This process is closer to Slow and Sure Enchantment p. 22, rather than Ceremonial Magic p. 12, so where the two conflict use the Slow and Sure rules. +1 bonus for any assistant who knows one of the skills involved (Thaumatology, new spell, a prerequisite spell or skill) at 20+, to a maximum bonus of +4, though the ceremonial magic penalties of -1 to skill per assistant offsets this bonus. [In effect, one can have up to four assistants without impairing the ability to cast the spell.] The GM makes this "Spell Creation roll" in secret.

Modifiers: All modifiers listed for Concept rolls; + 1 per assistant with skill 20+ in one of the skills required for the spell, to a maximum of +4; - 1 to -10 (GM's discretion) if the researcher must make do with anything less than quality tools, texts and facilities.

On a success, the researcher proves his incantation and creates the spell. On a failure, he may try again, provided he has the time and money (see below). On a critical failure, an explosion or accident occurs. This inflicts at least 2d damage to the researcher and each assistant - and destroys the facilities, which must be rebuilt at full cost before making another attempt.

If the researcher was working with a flawed incantation, he will never get the spell to work (this is why the GM rolls in secret!), but a critical success on the Spell Creation roll lets him realize that his incantation is flawed.

Time Required

Each Spell Creation roll requires (energy cost/number of researchers) days, with a minimum of one day.

Cost

Divide costs by 10, if the researcher already has a magical workshop. [The only cost in that case is restocking the 10% of the workshop that constitutes the consumables.] Each researcher who wishes to attempt a Spell Creation roll must pay the facilities cost “up front” before making his first attempt.

In addition, each attempt to “perfect the spell” has a cost equal to the cost that the mage would charge to cast the spell for a client.


Testing and Bugs

The majority of new spells have shortcomings, or "bugs." Critical success on the Spell Creation roll means there are no bugs; success by three or more gives 1d/2 minor bugs; and any other success gives 1d/2 major bugs and 1d minor bugs. Minor bugs are annoying, but not critical. Major bugs arc catastrophic!

To find bugs requires testing. Once per week of testing, roll vs. the new spell. After testing, any remaining bugs surface on any casting of the spell that fails by 5 or more. A major bug always surfaces on a critical failure.


New Spells and Enchantment

As noted in Required Skills, a new spell does not contain an Item option within the description the GM generates. Creating an Item option for a spell is treated as if the researcher were creating a new spell, with the additional prerequisite of Enchant or one of the other Enchantment college spells, which increases the prerequisite count. Despite using the rules for Inventing New Spells, the result of a successful Spell Creation roll is not a spell, but the process whereby the spell can be placed in a magic “item.” I.E., a successful Spell Creation roll adds an Item section to the original new spell, no more, no less.

[post 2 of 2]

Last edited by Curmudgeon; 07-17-2022 at 10:26 PM.
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