Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-10-2016, 06:37 PM   #1
Refplace
 
Refplace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Yukon, OK
Default The odd difference among social skills

The skill of the week thread which is about Streetwise this week brought to mind how odd some of the social skills are.

Some have a built in knowledge of cultural norms (or sub culture) and include things like symbols, Heraldry, colors, flags, uniforms, etc and area knowledge like locations and even laws.
Others just focus on how to talk to someone in certain circumstances.

Streeetwise and Savior Faire are pretty broad, though Savoir Faire requires a specilaity.
Carousing, Fast Talk, Diplomacy and Sex Appeal are much more limited in scope.

Anyone else feel thisis a bit odd? Not really broken just not perfectly balanced or symmetrical.
__________________
My GURPS publications GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits; GURPS Template Toolkit 4: Spirits; Pyramid articles. Buying them lets us know you want more!
My GURPS fan contribution and blog:
REFPLace GURPS Landing Page
My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items)
My GURPS Wiki entries
Refplace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2016, 07:30 PM   #2
Tyneras
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Kentucky, USA
Default Re: The odd difference among social skills

I always pictured (at a gut level) streetwise being a Savoir Faire (area, criminal) with a themed name.

Also, a lot of GURPS skills that overlap have accumulated. We could probably trim a good 25% by going over them with a fine toothed comb Alternate Gun Specialties (Pyramid 3/65) style.
__________________
GURPS Fanzine The Path of Cunning is worth a read.
Tyneras is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2016, 12:22 AM   #3
Flyndaran
Untagged
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon
Default Re: The odd difference among social skills

Streetwise and Savoir Faire are about WHO you socialize with, while the others are more about HOW you socialize.
Diplomacy is diplomatic whether you're talking to Joe Bartender, Joe Biden, or Joe the barely sapient tiger.
__________________
Beware, poor communication skills. No offense intended. If offended, it just means that I failed my writing skill check.

Last edited by Flyndaran; 12-11-2016 at 12:27 AM.
Flyndaran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2016, 01:50 AM   #4
corwyn
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Default Re: The odd difference among social skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
I always pictured (at a gut level) streetwise being a Savoir Faire (area, criminal) with a themed name.

Also, a lot of GURPS skills that overlap have accumulated. We could probably trim a good 25% by going over them with a fine toothed comb Alternate Gun Specialties (Pyramid 3/65) style.
I'm really glad that Dungeon Fantasy has done away with needing a half dozen skills to search a room. Anyone else remember when you needed Architecture to find secret doors.
__________________
MiB 7704

Playing: GURPS Nordlond Dragons of Hosgarth
Running Savage Worlds Tour of Darkness (Vietnam + Mythos)
corwyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2016, 02:00 AM   #5
Railstar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Default Re: The odd difference among social skills

Another aspect of skills like Savoir-Faire or Streetwise is the ideas of working within a role or persona, for instance, I apparently get complimented a lot on my manner in customer service… but in a less defined social situation, I stumble with small talk, I have no idea what to say, and thinking up the right words for the situation becomes a struggle in itself.

To me, skill overlap is not necessarily a bad thing – I like when Area Knowledge, Streetwise or Urban Survival could all work for the task you are looking for. I also like when Savoir-Faire or Carousing can cover a social situation. For instance, Savoir-Faire could be used to intimidate someone if you use your position or contacts or throwing names around to get it done... Intimidation works with that method, but works with other methods as well.

The problem is when people feel they *need* both skills. I fall prey to it at times, but I think it can be an interesting way to highlight someone's limitations.
Railstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2016, 03:54 AM   #6
Walrus
 
Walrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Chelyabinsk, Russia
Default Re: The odd difference among social skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Railstar View Post
The problem is when people feel they *need* both skills. I fall prey to it at times, but I think it can be an interesting way to highlight someone's limitations.
And Social Engineering proposes Complementary Skills mechanics for such cases.
__________________
MH Setting. Welcome to help.
Walrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2016, 11:00 AM   #7
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: The odd difference among social skills

I think Streetwise makes most sense if it is taken as a general social skill, just as Diplomacy, Acting, Leadership, and Fast Talk are. I think it's a slight misnomer too because I think it should be usable outside the "street" - it should cover savvy and clever observation and action in other settings.

However I think all of those general skills should often also have Area/Social knowledge taken into account.

If someone moves to a place with an unfamiliar culture, all their social skills are going to have familiarity problems. A very wise "street" dweller in Chicago is going to have major issues if he wakes up in London. And an actual Diplomat probably puts more study into learning knowledge of specific cultures and protocols and situations than the general social skill of Diplomacy.
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2016, 12:22 PM   #8
Phantasm
 
Phantasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On the road again...
Default Re: The odd difference among social skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Railstar View Post
The problem is when people feel they *need* both skills. I fall prey to it at times, but I think it can be an interesting way to highlight someone's limitations.
There are times when I go, "Give me a roll at the best of your Architecture or Search skills. If you have both, you can roll the lower one as a complementary." This lets folks who have one but not the other have a shot at contributing, while those with both aren't going "why did I take both if I didn't need them?"
__________________
"Life ... is an Oreo cookie." - J'onn J'onzz, 1991

"But mom, I don't wanna go back in the dungeon!"

The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project A-G, H-R, and S-Z, and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation.
Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting
Phantasm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2016, 01:49 PM   #9
corwyn
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Saskatoon, SK
Default Re: The odd difference among social skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantasm View Post
There are times when I go, "Give me a roll at the best of your Architecture or Search skills. If you have both, you can roll the lower one as a complementary." This lets folks who have one but not the other have a shot at contributing, while those with both aren't going "why did I take both if I didn't need them?"
Well, yeah, I've never required anyone to have architecture to search for secret doors, even when Kromm said we did. And I'm glad he changed his mind, at least for the narrow genre of DF. But my regular fantasy doesn't need that kind of skill bloat. The only people that should have Architecture are people that design building professionally.

Though I note now that it is Vision, Observation, or Traps, not Search, my mistake.
__________________
MiB 7704

Playing: GURPS Nordlond Dragons of Hosgarth
Running Savage Worlds Tour of Darkness (Vietnam + Mythos)
corwyn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2016, 02:39 PM   #10
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: The odd difference among social skills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Some have a built in knowledge of cultural norms (or sub culture) and include things like symbols, Heraldry, colors, flags, uniforms, etc and area knowledge like locations and even laws.
Others just focus on how to talk to someone in certain circumstances.
All of them are reliant on ability to navigate social norms, which is a combination of having the skill and having the contextually appropriate Cultural Familiarity.

Heraldry, Area Knowledge, and Law are their own skills. Certain forms of Savoir Faire may include a little bit (Heraldry has a default from SF(High Society), and SF(Military) implies some coverage of legally-mandated military codes of conduct), but not a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Streeetwise and Savior Faire are pretty broad, though Savoir Faire requires a specilaity.
Carousing, Fast Talk, Diplomacy and Sex Appeal are much more limited in scope.
I'd say the opposite! Streetwise and Savoir Faire are narrow - they're very inappropriate Influence skills outside the specific social context they're meant for.

Carousing is a special case, it's not actually an influence skill except (per Social Engineering p32) in very limited use-case. Being a complementary skill skill of sorts is its main functionality. It does have pretty specific required context, but it cuts across most social lines - some individuals and a very few subgroups might never be targets for Carousing but most can be if you're able to put yourself at the right occasion for it. (Why the same skill covers everyone's idea of partying hard...eh.) And it's an HT/E skill.

Fast Talk and Diplomacy are as close to universal as you can get. Diplomacy is the influence skill whose closest thing to a downside is that it can't be used in active combat. And that it's a Hard skill, of course. Fast Talk applies to anyone anytime (unless they're immune to influence skills of course), though it burns bridges...hopefully behind you! There might be some contexts where one or both of them is specifically penalized, but I'd expect those to be rare.

Sex Appeal usually will only be applicable to somewhere in the neighborhood of half the population (depending on the frequency of bi/omni-sexuality vs. asexuality), at least without some means of switching your presentation. Depending on social structures (gender segregation of organizations and level of openness about sexual orientation) the set of targets available to a PC of a particular sex may seem much more or much less useful. That said, it's otherwise pretty general.

(Tangent - I feel like there must be rules about resistance to Influence rolls for targets in a group that I'm not finding...)
__________________
I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.
Ulzgoroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
social engineering

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.