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Old 06-28-2011, 07:41 AM   #21
Kazander
 
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Default Re: Build Assistance: Forcing Opponents to Stay in Close Combat

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Originally Posted by chris1982 View Post
With this you could e.g. also grapple the opponents weapon arm etc. so it does much more than what you originally planned.
That's a simple fix of changing Grapple Only (-80%) to Grapple Torso Only (-80%); you're right, I didn't think of that but it's definitely an undesirable behavior.

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Originally Posted by chris1982 View Post
I also second a MA technique. But in that case you SHOULD think about what the technique is about.

A very simple solution would ofc be a combination of grapple with the off hand and stab with the knife.
I have two problems with this, and it's much more about characterization than any realism. First, grappling someone who has a weapon in generally Stupid. He can parry your grapple with the weapon and probably hurt you in the process. This is obviously not constructive towards the character concept. Grappling with the 'off hand' is also not desirable in itself, because that 'off hand' is already wielding a second knife. It's busy. For the same reason, the existing Armed Grapple Technique doesn't work because it requires two hands on the same weapon, and ties up that weapon while being used for such. No poking and stabbing with it at the same time.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
With invisible arms that do this and only this? Seems contrived.
Keep in mind that it's the game effect that's important: the opponent cannot leave CC without winning a Contest of Strength. There really aren't any invisible arms here.

I don't have my heart set on a Grappling mechanism here. I'm really looking for a mechanism (Realistic, Cinematic or Exotic) to keep opponents from readily Retreating out of Close Combat, that doesn't require the very obvious mechanism of growing another pair of arms which are dangerously exposed to being lopped off from actual physical Grappling attempts.

In fact, I would say that the -4 to DX that the opponent has because of this Grappling in the current build is actually an undesirable effect. The current build was just the only way I could think of to achieve my goal.

Contrived? Sure, I'll give you that, but it's in keeping with the tone and flavor of the game I'm in. Not everything has to be 100% realistic--that's what Cinematic DF is all about.
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:19 AM   #22
Anders Gabrielsson
 
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Default Re: Build Assistance: Forcing Opponents to Stay in Close Combat

It is the way most fights seem to move in reality, though, as far as I can tell. Again, I can't really picture a fight going the way you describe it, with one combatant staying within what could be described as close range against the other's will without grappling.
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:26 AM   #23
Anders Gabrielsson
 
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Default Re: Build Assistance: Forcing Opponents to Stay in Close Combat

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Originally Posted by Kazander View Post
Keep in mind that it's the game effect that's important: the opponent cannot leave CC without winning a Contest of Strength.
Now I really don't understand what this is supposed to represent. They have to win a Contest of ST to break away from... what? He's not holding them (with or without invisible arms), so what are they breaking away from?

If the existing MA techniques aren't doing the job, I'd make up a new one. Some way to grapple people with a leg, or a one-handed armed grapple or something. I just don't see how he could force people to stay next to him by exerting his Strength through the air, which is what the invisible arms (clever solution though it is) looks like.

Again, I'd rather make it some kind of triggered movement, or Altered Timerate (Only to Wait: Follow opponent leaving my hex) or something, so that while he can't force them to stay in his space he can follow them when they try to leave.

Sorry if I'm harshing your buzz. I'm trying to be helpful. :)
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:52 AM   #24
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Build Assistance: Forcing Opponents to Stay in Close Combat

I've got an idea:
Perk: Rules Exemption (Can Step and Wait)

What this does:
Knife-fighter Steps into Close Combat, and declares a Wait. The trigger is 'opponent B begins his/her turn'. B's turn comes (B starts in CC!), and B wants to step back and do something, but is immediately interrupted by A's attack. Notice that the attack is resolved in CC (because B starts in CC, yet hasn't stepped back yet).
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Old 06-28-2011, 09:42 AM   #25
Captain Joy
 
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Default Re: Build Assistance: Forcing Opponents to Stay in Close Combat

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
I've got an idea:
Perk: Rules Exemption (Can Step and Wait)

What this does:
Knife-fighter Steps into Close Combat, and declares a Wait. The trigger is 'opponent B begins his/her turn'. B's turn comes (B starts in CC!), and B wants to step back and do something, but is immediately interrupted by A's attack. Notice that the attack is resolved in CC (because B starts in CC, yet hasn't stepped back yet).
This will force B to deal with being in CC for his defense; but he can still step away, so B's attack will not be in CC. Right?
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Old 06-28-2011, 09:51 AM   #26
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Build Assistance: Forcing Opponents to Stay in Close Combat

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Originally Posted by Captain Joy View Post
This will force B to deal with being in CC for his defense; but he can still step away, so B's attack will not be in CC. Right?
Seems so. Do you see this as very bad? I don't think a Perk is enough to be immune to Reach 1+ weapons.
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:02 AM   #27
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
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Default Re: Build Assistance: Forcing Opponents to Stay in Close Combat

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Originally Posted by Kazander View Post
He's very quick, having a Basic Move of 11, and thus a Step of 2.
Give him a Perk which lets him take one of his steps when his opponent steps away.

Perk: Shadow Step
Close Combat fighter can use a Step during opponent's movement to shadow the opponent in Close Combat.


It's not going to be a very useful Perk in general, but if you have a Step of 2 and only need to use 1 to get into CC, then you'll be able to stay in CC, using 1 Step to follow an opponent's retreat, and 1 Shadow Step to follow an opponent's Step.
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Old 06-28-2011, 11:04 AM   #28
Kazander
 
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Default Re: Build Assistance: Forcing Opponents to Stay in Close Combat

Maybe what I'm trying to do would be better represented by some sort of Affliction: Sessile variation, somehow limited to just the opponent he's attacking, but enhanced so as to not take an action. Probably not resisted by HT, either--Will or ST, depending on the mechanism. Not quite sure what this will take, but I'll work on it. Suggestions welcome.

The idea is to really capitalize on his CC advantage: he has no penalties, whereas opponents with Reach 1 or 2 weapons will be at a definite disadvantage, even with the Close Combat technique. They will also not be able to take advantage of the Retreat Option (like Fencing masters and Dodge monkeys like to do), at least not without some kind of Contest to do so.

The perk idea is nice (and cheap!), but ultimately doesn't encompass all I'm trying to do. I realize that what I'm trying to do is quite powerful, and should cost some points in the end.

You're not harshing my buzz, Anders, but you clearly see it differently than I do. I really don't see that there is any relation between ability description and ability effect--it's the effect you pay points for, and that's what I'm really to figure out how to accomplish.
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Old 06-28-2011, 11:37 AM   #29
Ze'Manel Cunha
 
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Default Re: Build Assistance: Forcing Opponents to Stay in Close Combat

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Originally Posted by Kazander View Post
The idea is to really capitalize on his CC advantage: he has no penalties, whereas opponents with Reach 1 or 2 weapons will be at a definite disadvantage, even with the Close Combat technique. They will also not be able to take advantage of the Retreat Option (like Fencing masters and Dodge monkeys like to do), at least not without some kind of Contest to do so.

The perk idea is nice (and cheap!), but ultimately doesn't encompass all I'm trying to do. I realize that what I'm trying to do is quite powerful, and should cost some points in the end.
Hmm, I suppose you could give him a limited Extra Attack: (Lower-Body Leg Grapple):

And then write the technique:

Lower-Body Leg Grapple: As Leg Grapple(p. 65), but defaults to Judo-2 or Wrestling-2, and can be used to attempt to capture your opponent’s leg if he’s within a yard. This technique is at an additional -2 if you haven't successfully parried an opponent's kick at your lower body.

(Peter might even approve of that one as legitimate...)
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Old 06-28-2011, 01:02 PM   #30
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Default Re: Build Assistance: Forcing Opponents to Stay in Close Combat

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Joy View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Perk: Rules Exemption (Can Step and Wait)
This will force B to deal with being in CC for his defense; but he can still step away, so B's attack will not be in CC. Right?
Seems so. Do you see this as very bad? I don't think a Perk is enough to be immune to Reach 1+ weapons.
I think it's a fantastic perk. I think you might consider "Step and Wait" as a house rule as well, and not charge anything.
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