May my gargoyle start the fight flying?

[hcobb]

Hi, in Death Test or random labyrinth crawls can I just declare that my gargoyle is flying at all times outside of combat?

ST 13, DX 11, and IQ 8 MA 10/18
Fine Halberd(2d+1), Fist(2d), Skin(3)
Belt pouch with a healing potion
Pole Arms(2), Humanish(1), Running(2), Light(3)

Turn one: fly up nine hexes, land, and charge attack for 3d+1

[Skarg]

Not if you have a GM who likes rationality or dislikes munchkiny gimmicks.

If you're indoors in small spaces, while TFT lets you hover, doing so constantly as a gargoyle would (I'd tend to imagine) probably be quite tiring and inconvenient for being cautious, observant, stealthy, opening doors, etc.

If you're expecting combat, though, beginning to hover right before you enter a room, if that's physically possible, seems reasonable to me. Probably makes noise though, so you might be more likely to alert whoever you're about to step in on.

I think a Death Test GM might reasonably say the curtains don't let fliers fly through them. A DT GM would also make you leave your magic potion at home.

A GM might also say Running doesn't increase flying MA, but might have different homebrew talents for that.

[mark hill]

I always guessed flying was very tiring for them, stone men .. I wouldnt recommend starting it

I figured long range flight could only happen at around 5000 ft, and they did a lot of 'hang gliding' .. low altitude hovering must burn a ton of bio energy

I did always let players use a running bonus for their gargs tho ..

[FireHorse]

Originally Posted by Skarg

A GM might also say Running doesn't increase flying MA, but might have different homebrew talents for that.

Yeah, if I were the GM, I'd rule that Running has nothing to do with Flying.

But if I were to make up a separate Flying talent, I don't think I'd give it any MA bonus. Flight is already really fast, and it doesn't need to be any faster.

Plus, I think the Running talent's biggest benefit really ought to be a reduction in Fatigue caused by running — which TFT doesn't bother to track, but I think it should, as I've mentioned elsewhere.

So likewise, the Flying talent's benefit might be a reduction in Fatigue from sustained flight. Or perhaps the ability to carry more weight while flying, or be more maneuverable (DX bonus?), things like that.

[hcobb]

Like say...

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#Talents

Flight Expertise(2) Negates the two points of the DX adjustment for attacking while flying (as per the Flight spell on page 25). This talent also negates the additional die penalty on saving throws to avoid hazards for those creatures unfamiliar with flight. This is a bonus skill for any creature that was born to a flying species and is useful for any character shapeshifted to one, becomes a vampire, or just fond of using the Flight spell. This talent doesn't grant any flying ability, it just represents familiarity with flight.

[FireHorse]

Yup. Like that. Anybody can fly if they have wings, but you need that talent to perform acrobatic stunts. :)

…

Incidentally, there's a Japanese [light novel / manga / anime] series called Goblin Slayer, and in one of the novels the characters are attacked by some Gargoyles while climbing the outer wall of a tower. It is mentioned that the Gargoyles are extremely heavy (because they're stone-like), and the lazy flapping of their wings cannot possibly be enough (according to Physics) to keep them aloft, but this is explained by suggesting that they have some sort of magic which cancels out much (but not all) of their mass while flying.

The Gargoyles do still need to flap their wings though, because the magic isn't the source of their flight, it's just making them weigh less.

So the characters kill them all in one shot simply by casting a Slow spell on the whole group — so now the Gargoyles' flapping rate is not enough to keep them airborne, and they all plummet to the ground and (shatter? splatter?) die.

Just something to think about.

[larsdangly]

I don't see any particular reason to 'nerf' flying creatures' ability to fly in combat. The rules seem pretty clear to me - if you can fly then you can be flying whether you move 0 or 5 or 10 hexes. In fact, it is not obvious that your halberd wielding gargoyle needs to land to deliver a charge attack, and thus can do so without becoming engaged with the target.

As for whether you can be flying at the moment of the start of the first turn (i.e., before your turn in the movement order), I'd say that's too situational to render a global ruling. Anyway, it probably doesn't matter because you always get a movement turn before your foes get an action turn, so you can always declare yourself to be flying as part of your first move (perhaps unless they have engaged you by then, in which case I'd rule you have to disengage as your action to get aloft). Of course if the ceiling is 4' high or something then there is no space for a large being to get airborne, but that too is a situational ruling that I don't think can be generalized.

On the other hand, the house ruled flying expertise is not something I'd add to my table - it is just a gift of an adj.DX bonus to combatants who fly (so potentially unbalancing). I have a few new talents I use as house rules, but try to limit them unless they do something unique (i.e., beyond combat bonuses, of which there are already plenty).

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

In fact, it is not obvious that your halberd wielding gargoyle needs to land to deliver a charge attack, and thus can do so without becoming engaged with the target.

ITL 133: "Most flying creatures may attack foes on the ground. This attack will also be at -4 DX (the flier is either hovering or taking a swipe as it flies past; neither is especially accurate) ... A few creatures (Gargoyles, for instance) will always land for a personal attack. They may land either beside or on top of their victim."

[larsdangly]

That sounds like a suggested behavior for that creature rather than a rule about flying attacks. I'm not sure what to do about it, but I wouldn't read it as a rules restriction.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

That sounds like a suggested behavior for that creature rather than a rule about flying attacks. I'm not sure what to do about it, but I wouldn't read it as a rules restriction.

The landed attack is adjDX 11. The flying swipe (which ought to count as a jab anyway) is adjDX 7.

I think it's fairly clear why gargoyles land to attack.