Guns after the fall of civerlisation

Dangerious P. Cats · 07-02-2009, 10:18 AM

After the fall of civerlisation how difficult will it be to continue making and using guns? Firearms require a fair degree of industry to use, not only is there the industry required to make the guns and ammunition, but also the process to make the metals and even gun powder, which can be very difficult and intensive.

whswhs · 07-02-2009, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

After the fall of civerlisation how difficult will it be to continue making and using guns? Firearms require a fair degree of industry to use, not only is there the industry required to make the guns and ammunition, but also the process to make the metals and even gun powder, which can be very difficult and intensive.

The kind of guns Americans are used to, with automatic actions and cartridges and modern propellants, probably not. Even nitrocellulose demands high-purity nitric acid. But Afghan smiths have been turning out low-tech guns with hand tools at least since the British raj, if not much earlier.

Bill Stoddard

The Colonel · 07-02-2009, 10:29 AM

Realistically you'd probably be back to War Between the States era stuff - black powder caplocks and simple repeaters - and that should be tenable as long as you can support the craftsmen.

tanniynim · 07-02-2009, 11:05 AM

Black powder is pretty easy to make, but highly dangerous and volatile: Saltpetre (Potassium Nitrate), Charcoal, and Sulfur.

It wouldn't be hard to make black powder rifles with a good setup and some skill.

sjard · 07-02-2009, 11:06 AM

My uncle (a gunsmith) claims that martini-henry style rifles aren't too hard to make on muscle powered tools. If you have better quality tools you could probably make some of the cheap, stamped part, WWII era weapons (sten guns, etc).

The sticky point is as Bill said, propellants. The imporant thing to keep in mind is that even most relatively modern propellants are easier to make, out of your kitchen sink as it were, than it is to make a percussion cap to ignite it with.

sjard · 07-02-2009, 11:11 AM

Question: what is the electrical situation like in your setting. That alone can make all the difference in the world as even most small towns will have a machine shop capable of creating most weapons up to (and sometimes beyond) WWII quality, if someone has the knowhow and maybe some plans.

Electrical power can also make aquiring materials for better propellants considerably easier.

Frost · 07-02-2009, 11:14 AM

Bill and the Colonel are in the right territory, from what I have found reading around the subject firearms in the TL4-6 range will be availible in most places.

Afluent or fairly lucky comunities will almost certainly be in a position to produce early TL 6 rifles, mortars and even concevibly a few light/medium machine guns on a cottage industry type basis. The one thing they are not likely to have (at least not for decades) is smokeless powder. Although there are types that can be made on a bathtub basis, as Bill says their production depends upon posessing comparitively large quantities of pure acids. While these can be produced on a small scale the limited quantities availible will undoubtedly be reserved for higher priority items such as primers.

Less fortunate communities will probably find themselves working with flintlock designs if nothing else due to the difficulty of aquiring primers. Muskets (possibly rifled) are pretty much a given but breach loaders are not impossible especialy if the comunity has the resources for a bit of tinkering and some familiarity with later percussion designs. The paragon of hypothetical post apocalyptic flintlocks would be a falling block breach loader (probably using a varient of the Peabody action) using externaly primed metal cartridges.

sjard · 07-02-2009, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frost

Muskets (possibly rifled)...

Unless the people making them are pressed for time, or can't figure out how, I don't see why anyone would go back to a smoothbore for solid slugs with how easy it would be to make Minié ball ammunition.

Unless they are recreating firearm technology from the ground up, anyone who knows how to make blackpowder guns, and most with even a passing interest, will know about the Minié ball.

whswhs · 07-02-2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjard

Question: what is the electrical situation like in your setting. That alone can make all the difference in the world as even most small towns will have a machine shop capable of creating most weapons up to (and sometimes beyond) WWII quality, if someone has the knowhow and maybe some plans.

Electrical power can also make aquiring materials for better propellants considerably easier.

Electrical technology ought to be sustainable after the fall of civilization. You just need two different metals and any mildly acidic solution to make batteries. Or if you have a generator, you can get electrical power by turning it . . . which can be done with a water wheel, windmill, or treadmill, for example, if you don't have fossil fuels.

You're not going to have solid state electronics. But the art of making vacuum tubes could be rediscovered; there are records of how it was done, and none of the technologies is all that arcane. And basement hobbyists used to do all the rest of simple radio with home workshops. Telegraph and telephone technology would be even simpler.

Bill Stoddard

safisher · 07-02-2009, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

After the fall of civerlisation how difficult will it be to continue making and using guns?

How long after? There are 300 million guns, most of which can fire hundred even thousands of rounds. Modern guns are fairly robust, small parts can be made with a file, and repairs are generally not to difficult. This means that you need to be decades, perhaps even a century out before guns are a problem. As Bill pointed out, men have been making guns with hands tools in Pakistan for a long, long time. A foot lathe powered by a springy sapling can be used to make a fine rifled barrel, as Pennsylvania gunsmiths knew in the 1700s.

However, ammunition can be more problematic. Sealed cans of ammunition may last decades (shooters are still using WWII-era ammo), but eventually this may be used up. New ammunition would probably reduce Malf to 14; it can be made with hand tools and kitchen sink chemistry. Check here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=GNA...t_eKKKUMu_C1SU

07-02-2009, 10:18 AM	#1
Dangerious P. Cats Join Date: Sep 2007	Guns after the fall of civerlisation After the fall of civerlisation how difficult will it be to continue making and using guns? Firearms require a fair degree of industry to use, not only is there the industry required to make the guns and ammunition, but also the process to make the metals and even gun powder, which can be very difficult and intensive. __________________ There is no "i" in team, but there is in Dangerious!

07-02-2009, 10:29 AM	#3
The Colonel Join Date: Jul 2006	Re: Guns after the fall of civerlisation Realistically you'd probably be back to War Between the States era stuff - black powder caplocks and simple repeaters - and that should be tenable as long as you can support the craftsmen.

07-02-2009, 11:05 AM	#4
tanniynim Join Date: May 2008	Re: Guns after the fall of civerlisation Black powder is pretty easy to make, but highly dangerous and volatile: Saltpetre (Potassium Nitrate), Charcoal, and Sulfur. It wouldn't be hard to make black powder rifles with a good setup and some skill.

07-02-2009, 11:06 AM	#5
sjard Stick in the Mud Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Rural Utah	Re: Guns after the fall of civerlisation My uncle (a gunsmith) claims that martini-henry style rifles aren't too hard to make on muscle powered tools. If you have better quality tools you could probably make some of the cheap, stamped part, WWII era weapons (sten guns, etc). The sticky point is as Bill said, propellants. The imporant thing to keep in mind is that even most relatively modern propellants are easier to make, out of your kitchen sink as it were, than it is to make a percussion cap to ignite it with. __________________ MIB #1457

07-02-2009, 11:11 AM	#6
sjard Stick in the Mud Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Rural Utah	Re: Guns after the fall of civerlisation Question: what is the electrical situation like in your setting. That alone can make all the difference in the world as even most small towns will have a machine shop capable of creating most weapons up to (and sometimes beyond) WWII quality, if someone has the knowhow and maybe some plans. Electrical power can also make aquiring materials for better propellants considerably easier. __________________ MIB #1457

07-02-2009, 11:14 AM	#7
Frost Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Shropshire, uk	Re: Guns after the fall of civerlisation Bill and the Colonel are in the right territory, from what I have found reading around the subject firearms in the TL4-6 range will be availible in most places. Afluent or fairly lucky comunities will almost certainly be in a position to produce early TL 6 rifles, mortars and even concevibly a few light/medium machine guns on a cottage industry type basis. The one thing they are not likely to have (at least not for decades) is smokeless powder. Although there are types that can be made on a bathtub basis, as Bill says their production depends upon posessing comparitively large quantities of pure acids. While these can be produced on a small scale the limited quantities availible will undoubtedly be reserved for higher priority items such as primers. Less fortunate communities will probably find themselves working with flintlock designs if nothing else due to the difficulty of aquiring primers. Muskets (possibly rifled) are pretty much a given but breach loaders are not impossible especialy if the comunity has the resources for a bit of tinkering and some familiarity with later percussion designs. The paragon of hypothetical post apocalyptic flintlocks would be a falling block breach loader (probably using a varient of the Peabody action) using externaly primed metal cartridges. Last edited by Frost; 07-02-2009 at 01:10 PM.