Early and Late TL9

[weby]

Please take the discussion on higher TL weapon to a different thread, this is TL 8+1/TL9 tech.

I will discuss the TL 8+1 weapons in the weapon part.

But a general description on how I see Superscience in GURPS:
Full superscience: Breaks the basic rules of physics. This is antigravity/reactionless thrusters and such.
Limited superscience: Does not break any of the fundamental rules, but is against current understanding of how other things work.
Not super science but higher tech level: This is indicates that the device requires new engineering, stronger materials or something similar and that is why we cannot have it yet.

Originally Posted by FrackingBiscuit

By comparison it seems silly to consider vortex guns of all things superscience because their rules don't reflect the fact they leak payload in flight (a simple enough fix rules-wise)

Yes a device that is a cone attack would not be super science. So changing the basic description of the vortex weapon to being a cone makes it non super science. I only said that the device as written in UT is superscience not that a cone version would be superscience. Though the cone version would likely need more than one "dose" in UT drug terms.

end note: If you read back on the thread you will see that the vortex guns as described in UT being superscience was brought up in context of the fluid dynamics understanding needing to change for air cars with lift only making sense. As they require the same basic type new fluid dynamics from the understanding today.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by FrackingBiscuit

Sort of. UT slugthrowers are caseless, and the only caseless assault rifle ever built was rejected,.

It wasn't rejected for performance reasons. It was for logistics reasons. specifically that we had all this cased ammo that needed to be used up.

Most of the rest of your post was no better.

Really, I don't understand what your issue is. Even if vortex weapons worked at least as well as they do in UT they wouldn't actually be useful for very much. Why in the world are you sacrificing so many electrons in their defense? Saying "everything about them has to be radically improved to achieve usefulness but that doesn't mean it has to be _superscience_!". Maybe it only means they're "probably" superscience.

[FrackingBiscuit]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Most of the rest of your post was no better.

That isn’t remotely true, but thanks for letting me know you aren’t worth responding to.

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by FrackingBiscuit

"Deployed" in the sense of putting one on a ship to run tests. No laser weapon has actually be used in combat, or deployed to an area where it might see combat.

The AN/SEQ-3 Laser Weapon System was deployed on the USS Ponce in the Persian Gulf in 2014 and authorized for operational use. When the Ponce was decommissioned three years later the laser was moved to USS Portland. There it was later replaced by a 150kw Mk 2 version and that ship also deployed to the middle east. More recently, USS Preble (DDG-88) has had the HELIOS laser system installed. The DDGs USS Stockdale and USS Dewey have also had the ODIN system installed (but it's a low power system).

So there's continuously been at least one laser in service for eight years, sometimes deployed to a global hot spot, with installations on five ships.

[weby]

Tools and construction materials

Laser and Plasma Torches: Laser and plasma cutters are existing technology in industry. For there to be smaller portable models, there is no real technical problems except that to scale down in size would likely require several generations. Thus there would need to be continuous demand for better such and there is the problem. They would be very dangerous tools as critical failures with the bigger ones would cut off limbs and so on. So maybe the low power ones will come to home workshops at some point, maybe not. So depending on if you as GM see current trend of increased safety going on or if you want a starwars universe you can decide the development speed. But the weights given in UT likely represent middle/late TL 8+1

Power Tools : This is old tech, but getting smaller and lighter so likely early TL 8+1

Rope: in UT they have only a single strength, but it is not fully clear what that means as normally rope strengths are given in force and either as impact force or static force. The wording "supports" would indicate static load, but then the ropes are worse than late TL 8 ones. If impact force then they seem about double typical current. So not clear if the ones in UT are middle TL 8 tech or middle TL 8+1

Instructor Kits: this was discussed earlier.

Industrial Water Knife: this is TL 8 tech, but the same things as plasma and laser cutters and any handheld water knives..

Portable Antimatter Trap: Humans have been able to manufacture only few molecules of antimatter and not been able to contain any. So Antimatter will

Monowire Spool: Monowire, there is a reason it is TL 9^ so not likely at all.

Portable Tool Kit/Mini-Toolkit/Portable Workshop: Toolkits in real life come in all types of sizes, so again depends on the GM view of how big a kit should give what game system bonus. But these all will exist throughout TL 8+1

Micro-Manipulator Tool Bench: A very likely development of the microscope workstations that we have today. As the tech gets smaller and smaller the human hand is getting too imprecise in movements. So early TL 8+1 tech likely be nonexistent at earlier parts of TL 8+1 at least. Late TL 8+1: Maybe.. But even then a portable device like this seems unlikely so I would likely put this device at higher than TL 8+1

Nail guns:
The automatic force sensors and such: The question is will this ever happen. In earlier parts of TL 8+1 such device will likely be a separate device where you measure and then adjust the power as each nail will not really need different powers. In later parts the question becomes: Will there be a human doing the construction?. It is more likely a robot and in such case the robot itself will likely have the sensors. But if it exists the sensors incorporated will likely be middle TL 8+1.

The safety sensor: Will most likely exist in all TL 8+1 nail guns.

Smart Nail Gun: Binary propellant.. ugh. Will talk more about such in the weapons chapter. So questionable. But if the binary propellant problems are solved this will be later than the corresponding weapons.

Gauss Nail Gun: Gauss propelling devices have a real problems with power today and when that is solved will have much larger electric fields and many places that you do construction in will not like really high magnetic pulses. So not a likely device.

Slipspray: Better lubricants: sure. The exact mechanics given: Depends on the GM view of skill modifiers. But sprayble slippery stuff exists today so early TL 8+1 as basic.

Gecko Adhesive: This has had some research on it very recently (about 2016 onward), but only small scale lab experiments. So if really workable will likely be middle TL 8+1 or later.

Techbot: A tracked small worker bot that requires weekly maintenance. Yes such will likely exist but will be more special purpose tools as the humanoid robot will be much more generally usable. And the weekly maintenance requirement.. ugh. But possible at early TL 8+1

Blast Foam: There already exists hardening fire foam, so a very possible technology and should not be too complicated to make, so if there is need this could come at early TL 8+1

Fire Extinguisher: These seem reasonable for TL 8+1

Antimatter: discussed in portanle anti matter trap above

Plastex B: Yes, more powerful explosives will be available throughout TL 8+1, but most likely used mostly for military as the normal explosives used during TL 8 have actually mostly shifted to cheaper but less powerful ones. Also for military FAE based systems will be likely more common. On the REF 4, that is more likely towards middle/late TL 8+1, unless there is a major war or such.

Taggants: Yes, will be in all commercial explosives from early TL 8+1

[weby]

Next weapons part 1. Skipping here due to the discussions on weapons earlier. (what could possibly go wrong)

Beam weapons:
General note on beam weapons most beam weapons at TL 8+1 will either be external power or if using secondary batteries and capacitors they have low rof.

First lasers:

Laser Dazzler/Blinding Lasers: these are TL 8 tech, but their use if frowned upon. So unless the general outlook changes, they will likely not be used much. But technically easy at early TL 8+1

Chemical Infrared Lasers: This seems to have been just a phase in earlier part of TL 8, as current developments seem to be focused on electric powered systems. So likely not coming back unless something changes.

The different frequencies are all possible at early TL 8+1. As for the specific effects of lasers I am not fully sure that they are correct. The full discussion is kind of not suitable for this thread topic but the cube root of damage and then a (2) penetration feels wrong and so on. So not commenting more on those.

Assault Laser: a 10lb projector having enough penetration to go through 2 average people and wound a third at 600 yards in less than a second seems a overly optimistic. So earliest late TL 8+1

Laser Sniper Rifle: a 20lb projector doing the same at 1000 yards through 3 people to wound a fourth seems optimistic too. So earliest late TL 8+1

But a man portable weapon with performance similar to maybe a pistol in damage but with the benefit of light speed and no gravity in hitting is feasible earlier.

Semi-Portable Laser: This seems more reasonable, though should likely suffer fast overheating penalties in sustained fire. So maybe middle TL 8+1

Point Defense Laser: Also seems more reasonable. So maybe middle TL 8+1

Area Defense Laser: Really starts to suffer from the visibility penalties even on a "clear day" in many places, but seems in itself more reasonable. So maybe middle TL 8+1

All these heavier lasers will likely have lower power versions at earlier part of TL 8+1, as lasers give real benefits to things like drone/missile defense and you do not need that high damage against most such.

Electrolasers:
Basically seem iffy given that electric current wants to follow path of least resistance. Yes a laser will cause an ionized path that the electricity will follow easier than not, but at the ranges given for the devices there is likely another path of least resistance, like an arc to the shooters hand..

Microwave weapons
Microwave Area Denial: this is late TL 8 tech and seem reasonable for early TL 8+1, except again the GM has to set the penalties to how they see them.

Microwave Disruptor: these are late TL 8 tech for missile defense. More generic use versions seem reasonable development due to increased use of tech. As for what penalty at what power level, again something the GM should set. But the basic devices seem like early TL 8+1 tech.

Sonic Weapons:

Sonic Nauseators: The description seems suspect, as current such use signals within the human hearing range. And again: What penalty to rolls you get should be set by the GM.

Tactical Nauseator is TL 8 tech, so available at early TL 8+1

Nausea Carbine/Nausea Pistol: developments that seem plausible. though they will likely be clumsy forms. But should be available at early TL 8+1

Sonic Screamers: are limited superscience. But at the given damage levels, maybe even full superscience.

Flamers: are limited superscience. The plasma would tend to spread in all directions.

Fluid projectors:

Sprays: seem a bit short range compared to TL 8 versions. Early TL 8+1 tech

Vortex projectors: A knockback device is maybe possible at early TL 8+1 or maybe later. But as discussed in length above the attack would be a cone and you would likely need quite many "doses" of a drug to deliver such.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by weby

First lasers:

Laser Dazzler/Blinding Lasers: these are TL 8 tech, but their use if frowned upon. So unless the general outlook changes, they will likely not be used much. But technically easy at early TL 8+1

I saw a green frequency laser sight used as a dazzler in a demonstration on TV. The intended use was for police/SWAT. Without a dedicated device being required I could see police doing this when expedient.

[warellis]

What is the difference between TL8+1 vs TL9 for this thread?

Wouldn't some of what is being labelled TL8+1 be TL9?

[johndallman]

The terminology being used in this thread is:

"TL9" for the stuff described for TL9 in GURPS Ultra-Tech (Corrected).

"TL8+1" for the new real-world tech level, when it happens - some think it is getting close - which is clearly not going to be the same as Ultra-Tech's version of TL9.

[the-red-scare]

An interesting addition to this thread would be technologies not found in Ultra-Tech/Bio-Tech that should be available at TL9, or things that are listed at TL10 or higher but ought to be lower. For example: I think many but not all types of microbot swarms will be possible at TL9 instead of TL10.