Adapting Third Edition Templates To Fourth Edition

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Hey all. The short version is that I was having fun adapting the many, many templates from GURPS Warriors and GURPS Rogues (both Third Edition books) to the Fourth Edition Rules. Then it stopped being fun, not just for the sheer volume, but as I encountered more and more places where I just didn't know how to do the conversion. Yes, even with GURPS Template Toolkit 1 and Toolkit 2 to help me. It doesn't help that I've come to realize I not only don't know Fourth Edition all that well, but finally realizing how often I misunderstood (or just missed) the rules for Third Edition. ^^'

Perhaps an even bigger source of embarrassment is that my searches for such threads on the board turned up nada. Or maybe too much; basically, I couldn't find the relevant threads on my own and I am assuming someone had done this before me. So... yeah, if someone even marginally more competent than myself has already done this, feel free to link to the appropriate places.

The GURPS Fandom Wiki is full of conversions of both characters and Race templates.

One of the biggest issues, is there was a lot more reliance on attributes than talents for improving skills in Classic. GURPS Update tends to brute force things.

For example, does Sir Isaac Newton really have an IQ 18 or does he have a lower IQ with Natural Scientist and Mathematical Ability talents in 4e?

More over which of the three methods of converting ST do you use?

*Maintain damage: use Classic score
*Maintain lifting ability: use GURPS Update's Quadratic Strength Conversion Table
*Maintain both damage and lifting ability: use GURPS Update's Quadratic Strength Conversion Table and Lifting ST/Striking ST to cover the difference.

IMHO it is better to take the concept and redo the template and see where the points fall. Corwin Bearclaw went up the least of the four Classic character in the Classic Basic set. [114] if you Maintain both damage and lifting ability but [122] if you keep the stats as they were in Classic.

[Infornific]

How a post commenting on the Heroic Knight conversion but the web site hiccuped and I lost it.


So just noting for that template, I would shoot for making the template costs a multiple of 5, and having the based template and the lenses add up to 150. I'd also look hard at using Talents for the lenses and dropping Speed to 6.0 to save a few points.

Regarding ST, I think trying to literally convert ST & HT from 3e is foolish - just convert ST & HT as per the original template and don't worry about minor differences in secondary Characteristics.

I can see adding unarmed skills where not already included but I would keep it to 3-4 points. Again, 3e was less grappling oriented so it wasn't as standard to add Judo or Wrestling.

I took a stab at the Archer -

Archer [100 points]

Attributes: ST 11 [10]; DX 11 [20]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 11 [10].
Secondary Characteristics: Damage 1d-1/1d+2; BL 24; HP 11 [0]; Will 10 [0]; Per 11 [5]; FP 11 [0].
Basic Speed 6.00 [10]; Basic Move 6 [0]

Advantages: 25 points in ST +1 [10], DX +1 [20], HT +1 [10], Per +1 to +4 [5/level], Acute Vision +1 to +4 [2/level], Arm ST +1 or +2 [5/level], Combat Reflexes [15], Damage Resistance (Tough Skin) 1 [3], Fit [5] or Very Fit [15], High Pain Threshold [10], Striking ST +1 or +2 [5 or 10], Weapon Bond [1], Weapon Master (Weapon of choice) [20]

Disadvantages: -20 points in Bloodlust [-10], Callous [-5], Chummy [-5] or Gregariousness [-10]
Code of Honor [-5 to -15], Sense of Duty (Comrades in Arms) [-5], and Wealth (Struggling) [-10]

Skills: One of:
Box (DX/A) [16], Perk (Strongbow) [1], Fast Draw (Arrow) DX/E) [4]
Crossbow (DX/E) [16], Fast Draw (Arrow) DX/E) [4] and 1 more point in Combat/Weapon skills.
Sling (DX/H) [16], Throwing (DX/A) [2] and 3 more points in Combat/Weapon skills
And one of Axe/Mace, Broadsword or Shortsword (DX/A) [4].

Armoury (any) (IQ/A) [4], Hiking (HT/A) [2] and Survival (any) (Per/A) [4]

5 points in any of Camouflage, First Aid, Savoir Faire (Military) and Scrounging (IQ/E); Cooking and Leadership (IQ/A); Tracking (Per/A); Brawling and Knife (DX/E); Stealth (DX/A); Running (HT/A); plus Farming (IQ/A) and any Professional skill.

Optional: 62 point version.-0.5 Speed [-10] and -1 Per [-5]. Reduce optional Advantages to 15 [-10]. Raise Disadvantages to -25 [-5]. -1 to missile weapon skill [-4]. If using Bow or Crossbow, drop Fast Draw Arrow [-4]. If using Sling, -1 to Throwing [-1] and drop extra points in Combat/Weapon skills [-3]. This is for a low cost henchman.



DX is a lot lower because it's not as necessary in 4e for such a focused specialist. I added Strongbow. If you want to add Brawling & Wrestling as standard, you could pay for it out of the 5 points in background skills, add -5 to Disadvantages or raise the template to 105 points. As is the template is relatively cheaper than 3e. The comparable cost in 4e would be 110 or 115.

[Otaku]

I am happy to see there are multiple responses since I was last here. I'm going to risk a monstrous post so that I can respond to everyone without having to make 3+ comments back-to-back; I will be addressing some of the other specific posts, plus some general stuff. As I stated in my first post, I've been working on this, on and off, for a little while. I need to update my signature so that it has my full GURPS library (unless there's a better place to list that info). I know Dungeon Fantasy has been mentioned multiple times, but I only know it by reputation as I've never read any of the books. I didn't want to overwhelm this thread by posting everything I already had, for fear I'd lose track of which template we were discussing. However, I figure I can risk sharing a link to the Google Document which has what I've already tried converting so far. If something is in red, it is either a template I skipped (but left the 3e version as a placeholder) or a note to myself. XP The link is just for viewing. Note that I won't update the document with suggested changes for templates until the matter seems to more or less have been resolved.

Thank you for your insights mlangsdorf. Keeping with the spirit of GURPS Warriors, I'm thinking the Heroic Knight template should reasonably accommodate a historical knight or your stereotypical fantasy knight. Not perfectly, but good enough a GM would only need to tweak it to campaign specifics. I wasn't worrying about Dungeon Fantasy, as I thought those books already contained templates for these kinds of things. Given my lack of knowledge when it comes to how historical knights were trained, even if some unarmed combat training won't do them much good, I'll still include it in the template. I would like to know what unarmed combat Skills and/or Combat Techniques seem like the best approximation of the unarmed combat training knights underwent.

Originally Posted by dcarson

Although I'd expect any fighter type to have 1 point in one of Brawling, Boxing or Wrestling.

Same, but I actually was playing Third Edition (Revised) back in the mid-1990s to early 2000s, so I wasn't sure if I should trust my memory. XD As such, I am grateful to know it wasn't just my old gaming group and me.

Maximara, I didn't see 4e conversions of the kind of templates covered by the Third Edition books GURPS Warriors and GURPS Rogues, though there are some nice ones for specific characters and races. Thank you. To answer your question about how we're approaching ST, it is the same as everything else: What is the minimum score in this area that a character built with this template would require to fill their role? While we clearly cannot cover every possibility, we can cover a decent amount. I confess it wasn't intentional, but by giving the Heroic Knight template ST, any character built using this template will have the required minimum ST for any Basic Set melee weapon compatible with the Skills also listed in the template. Well, unless I misread something. ;)

Good to hear from you again, Infornific. :) As mentioned earlier this post, unarmed combat was actually a semi-regular occurrence in my old 3e games, so we preferred having at least Brawling and Wrestling to relying on just DX (with some not-relevant exceptions). So yes, when I post an update to the Heroic Knight template, I'll officially add in Brawling and Wrestling (unless some other unarmed Skills are more appropriate; see what I asked of mlangsdorf). If you think it worthwhile, then I'll try to get everything to end in "0" or "5" after all. I'll have to look at your proposed Archer template later, however, as I used up all my time (and them some) writing this comment. Feel free to see what I got on my own for an Archer using the above link. Which brings me back to the question (that I may have forgotten to ask earlier): how much stuff should I consider including from outside of Basic Set? I know of Heroic Archer, but I don't own anything that actually explains that Advantage. My understanding is it is more or less Gunslinger for bowmen...

[Infornific]

Side note - one reason for upping Disadvantages to -25 is that you could swap in the Disadvantage modules from Delvers to Grow as an option for quick disadvantages.

One more template - a stab at Engineer, mostly to show incorporating Talents:

Artificer affects both Mechanic and Engineer so that's a good choice for an Engineer. It would be a bit munchkiny, but you could add Electronics Operations as well and Mathematics (Applied and Surveying) to Artificer while still keeping the cost 10/level.

Engineer [115 points]

Attributes: ST 11 [10]; DX 11 [20]; IQ 11 [20]; HT 11 [10].
Secondary Characteristics: Damage 1d-1/1d+2; BL 24; HP 11 [0]; Will 11 [0]; Per 11 [0]; FP 11 [0].
Basic Speed 6.00 [10]; Basic Move 6 [0]

Advantages: Artificer 1 [10] and 20 points in Artificer 2 or 3 [10 or 20], ST +1 [10], DX +1 [20], +1 IQ [20], HT +1 [10], Per +1 to +4 [5/level], Combat Reflexes [15], Damage Resistance (Tough Skin) 1 [3], Fit [5] or Very Fit [15], High Pain Threshold [10], Manual dexterity [5/level] and Versatile [5]

Disadvantages: -20 points in Bloodlust [-10], Callous [-5], Chummy [-5] or Gregariousness [-10]
Code of Honor [-5 to -15], Overconfidence [-5], Post-Combat Shakes [-5] and Sense of Duty (Comrades in Arms) [-5]

Skills: Engineer (Combat) IQ/H) [8], Armoury (small arms or siege engines) (IQ/A) [1], Camouflage (IQ/E) [1], First Aid (IQ/E) [1], Mathematics (Surveying) (IQ/H) [2] and Savoir Faire (Military) (IQ/E) [1]. 4 points in Carpentry and Scrounging (IQ/E); Administration, Leadership and Survival (any) (IQ/A); Strategy and Tactics (IQ/H); Brawling and Knife (DX/E); Gunner/TL, Stealth and Wrestling (DX/A).

Lenses:

TL 1-3: Mechanic (primitive machines) (IQ/A) [2], Engineer (primitive machines) (IQ/H) [4] and Mathematics (Applied) (IQ/H) [4]. 7 points in melee combat and unarmed skills. Add

TL 4-6: Explosives (Demolitions) (IQ/A) [4]. 9 points in any of Mechanic (any) and Explosives (EOD) (IQ/A); Throwing (DX/E); Hiking (HT/A); Riding, Shortsword and Spear (DX/A). 4 points in Guns (any) or Black Powder Weapons (any) (DX/E). Add Artist (Woodworking) (IQ/H); Blacksmith and Cooking (IQ/A); and Riding (DX/A) to optional skills.

TL 7+: Explosives (Demolitions) (IQ/A) [4], Traps (IQ/A) [2] and.7 points in any of Electronics Operations (Commo or Sensors), Mechanic (any) and Explosives (EOD) (IQ/A); Throwing (DX/E); Hiking (HT/A). 4 points in Guns (any) or Beam Weapons (any) (DX/E). Add Computer Operation (IQ/E) and Driving (any) (DX/A) to optional skills.

Optional: 125 point version - raise IQ to 12, drop optional Advantages to 15 and raise Disadvantages to -25.

[corwyn]

The gca repository has datafiles for Rogues here:

http://www.motoslave.net/gcarepo/view.php?pkgid=63

and Wizards and Warriors here

http://www.motoslave.net/gcarepo/browse.php?pg=9

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Keeping with the spirit of GURPS Warriors, I'm thinking the Heroic Knight template should reasonably accommodate a historical knight or your stereotypical fantasy knight.

A historical knight could be anything from a mounted man-at-arms to a minor, untitled landlord who wouldn't think of fighting. Sir William Lucas from Pride and Prejudice is a fictional knight drawn from Jane Austen's early 19th century acquaintances, but he's not a warrior of any kind.

Even historical knights who are warriors vary from William the Conqueror's mounted spearmen in heavy mail to zweihander wielding infantrymen in Maximillian plate. It's not a precise term and it covers over 1000 years of history.

Originally Posted by Otaku

I wasn't worrying about Dungeon Fantasy, as I thought those books already contained templates for these kinds of things.

I was mostly referencing DFRG to deal with slayer training and to illustrate that there are a bunch of different "Knight" templates in GURPS canon of wildly different abilities and concept.

Originally Posted by Otaku

Given my lack of knowledge when it comes to how historical knights were trained, even if some unarmed combat training won't do them much good, I'll still include it in the template. I would like to know what unarmed combat Skills and/or Combat Techniques seem like the best approximation of the unarmed combat training knights underwent.

See Martials Arts 4e, pp 175-177. It goes from Brawling and Wrestling, to Wrestling, to what is effectively Judo, depending on the time period and the weapons and armor in use.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Maximara, I didn't see 4e conversions of the kind of templates covered by the Third Edition books GURPS Warriors and GURPS Rogues, though there are some nice ones for specific characters and races. Thank you. To answer your question about how we're approaching ST, it is the same as everything else: What is the minimum score in this area that a character built with this template would require to fill their role? While we clearly cannot cover every possibility, we can cover a decent amount. I confess it wasn't intentional, but by giving the Heroic Knight template ST, any character built using this template will have the required minimum ST for any Basic Set melee weapon compatible with the Skills also listed in the template. Well, unless I misread something. ;)

The weapons tables don't seem to have take into account the change in ST from Classic to 4e. A Flail still requires ST 13 but in 4e it should be 11 because that is what Classic ST 13 translates to in 4e regarding lifting things.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

The weapons tables don't seem to have take into account the change in ST from Classic to 4e. A Flail still requires ST 13 but in 4e it should be 11 because that is what Classic ST 13 translates to in 4e regarding lifting things.

That assumes that (one-handed) flails were set at ST 13 based on how much weight ST 13 could lift, when in reality they were set at ST 13 based on the lack of evidence they were ever actually used. If they were used, then they weren't used often and "they take exceptional strength to use" is as good a justification as any for that. ST 11 is not exceptional strength. The change in how much it can lift doesn't change that. It just changes how much pretty average strength can lift.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

That assumes that (one-handed) flails were set at ST 13 based on how much weight ST 13 could lift, when in reality they were set at ST 13 based on the lack of evidence they were ever actually used. If they were used, then they weren't used often and "they take exceptional strength to use" is as good a justification as any for that. ST 11 is not exceptional strength. The change in how much it can lift doesn't change that. It just changes how much pretty average strength can lift.

Except that argument falls flat on its face with an 18 when you factor in Lifting ST and Striking ST which didn't exist in Classic. ST 11 + Lifting ST +2 lifts the same as ST 13 and ST 11 + Striking ST +2 does the damage of ST 13.

More over it doesn't help when Morningstars (ST 12) aren't flails at all but basically a club with spikes What GURPS calls a "Morningstar" is actually a ball-and-chain flail.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

A historical knight could be anything from a mounted man-at-arms to a minor, untitled landlord who wouldn't think of fighting.

My apologies, for I have made a mistake. GURPS Rogues, GURPS Warriors, and GURPS Wizards* aren't meant to give us one template to rule them all, even within their named category. In GURPS Warriors, the Heroic Knight template is the example entry at the beginning of the book. So I can just quote from there to explain it's purpose:

Originally Posted by GURPS Warriors, page 5

A template is really a “generic character.” You will need a “concept” – a unified vision of what it represents and where it fits in – just as for any other character. To develop this, decide on the type of template you are designing and what general role it will fill. Now visualize which character traits will be needed to meet the demands of that role in your campaign. Template design is one of the last steps of campaign preparation, so use everything you know about the campaign world to help you here.

Example: We plan to construct a “heroic knight” template, suitable for a fantasy campaign. We decide he’s strong, honorable, a wise leader and a skilled warrior. This is both an archetype (the “heroic” part) and an institutional template (the “knight” part). One could create separate templates for each aspect, or treat them as “lenses” (see Lenses and Filters, p. 9), but we have chosen to keep things simple for now.

If you're thinking "That isn't what you asked for in previous posts" then you are exactly right. I asked for what was unneeded and never intended, hence the need to apologize! I am hoping I can reference the three examples for the next template (Archer, GURPS Warriors pages 11-15) to help clarify what it is I'm looking for. Not a template to cover anyone and everyone who has ever been referred to as an "archer", but something that could be used to build as diverse of options as:

• Koji Inabe, a for a cinematic GURPS Japan set in that country's past.
• Andrew Leadflinger, a halfling from GURPS Fantasy, for a pseudo-medieval/fantasy kind of game.
• Dwayne Wilson (Nightshade), a Green Arrow-style superhero for a (at the time of publishing) modern day GURPS Supers game.

This also addresses a general question I had earlier: yes, it is perfectly fine to use traits from outside of the Basic Set. Koji Inabe makes use of cinematic Skills that - in Third Edition - would be found in GURPS Martial Arts or Compendium I. Andrew Leadflinger is using the Racial Template from GURPS Fantasy Folk (GURPS Fantasy Folk), while Nightshade has "super equipment" that I believe required GURPS Supers (for Third Edition) to design (I don't think Compendium I and Compendium II's rules would have been enough).

So, again, thanks for all the help you've already given me, mlangsdorf. I wouldn't have realized my mistakes if you hadn't, and that is on top of things like details about knightly training, and where to look in GURPS Martial Arts for Fourth Edition (which I even have handy!). :D

*I don't own currently GURPS Wizards, and unlike GURPS Rogues and GURPS Warriors I barely read and used that one back in the day. I'm not sure if I ever owned it; I think I just glanced through a friend's copy over 20 years ago. XD Unless someone else wants to tackle it, I won't be including GURPS Wizard's templates along with the others. Given how many Magic Systems were available back then and are available now in GURPS, updating the templates for GURPS Wizards to Fourth Edition might require its own thread.